Topic: TAR 35 (formerly called 36): Bitch, Moan & Squeal Here! *POSSIBLE SPOILERS!*

[ianthebalance]

Y'all are freaking me out

[georgiapeach]

What I want for a Finale is the BEST racers standing at the end.

If that is a final M/M then so be it.

BUT if the women are hindered by tasks that require male level of strength only then YES that is a very serious issue. Intelligence, courage, SMART THINKING, map skills, skill at asking for the right help...all that is fair game. Lifting 100 pounds of something may not.

I don't think we can comment negatively about an all M/M finale until we see what caused it. JMO

[Brannockdevice]

Y'all are freaking me out

How so?

[Traveldude1]

What's odd is the strange obsession with wanting more F/F teams to dominate the race. If anything, people should be more irritated that co-ed teams win the majority of seasons these days. The last M/M team to win was Will/James (2.55) and the last true alpha male winners were Dave and Connor (2.17) in S24. Get over yourselves

[ianthebalance]

What I want for a Finale is the BEST racers standing at the end.

If that is a final M/M then so be it.

BUT if the women are hindered by tasks that require male level of strength only then YES that is a very serious issue. Intelligence, courage, SMART THINKING, map skills, skill at asking for the right help...all that is fair game. Lifting 100 pounds of something may not.

I don't think we can comment negatively about an all M/M finale until we see what caused it. JMO

This is the best take and similar to how I feel but didn’t know how to word. Let’s wait until these episodes air. Plus when you do the show 35/36 times, this was bound to happen one of those times

[Brannockdevice]

What's odd is the strange obsession with wanting more F/F teams to dominate the race. If anything, people should be more irritated that co-ed teams win the majority of seasons these days. The last M/M team to win was Will/James (2.55) and the last true alpha male winners were Dave and Connor (2.17) in S24. Get over yourselves

I want more FF to dominate the race because I want more women to dominate. Period. We live in a world that puts women down at every possible chance, and seeing women succeed in every area of life, including on The Amazing Race, is the only thing I want to see.

[Traveldude1]

It's not the show's fault that it's a difficult, physical, and a taxing adventure around the world that happens to favori co-ed and M/M teams. To get more F/F teams to dominate, you would have to slant the casting and tasks in a very unfavorable way. Don't blame casting because most F/F teams lack the strength/endurance to be competitive with the very top teams. Whine away about an all M/M Final 3 for the first time in history.

[Joberio]

At least it's not 3 of your standard alpha teams. It includes a deaf parent, and a Black M/M team has very rarely made the final 3. But you're not wrong.

If I'm being honest . . . that's the only silver lining.  That they're three men's teams you don't normally see get that far in the race.  But aside from that, I'm inclined to agree with Brannockdevice.

[I ♥ TAR]

I am also not fan of all-male F3 but we are still getting 7 legs with 3 FF teams which happened only in TAR5 & TAR22 so that's something too looking forward to I think.

[Brannockdevice]

It's not the show's fault that it's a difficult, physical, and a taxing adventure around the world that happens to favor co-ed and M/M teams. To get more F/F teams to dominate, you would have to slant the casting and tasks in a very unfavorable way. Don't blame casting because most F/F teams lack the strength/endurance to be competitive with the very top teams. Whine away about an all M/M Final 3 for the first time in history.

I'd like to engage with this for a bit.

Setting aside the assumption that women cannot excel at physical tasks (which I emphatically disagree with), if that is truly the case then why bother casting women in the first place if they are destined to fail? Also, why would it be unfavorable to have the tasks favor the witty and clever? Take Kim and Penn. If anything that season should have seen Ryan and Dusty cruise to an easy victory.

Furthermore, I think you overlook a point I made that the race repeatedly favors men season after season. There are more MM teams than FF teams in this season specifically, but this is also the 21st such season. I don't think it is a coincidence that in the three seasons that produced FF winners, two of them had more women cast than men in the first place.

I'll leave off with saying that it isn't "whining" to take a firm stance against sexism and misogyny.

[Brannockdevice]

I am also not fan of all-male F3 but we are still getting 7 legs with 3 FF teams which happened only in TAR5 & TAR22 so that's something too looking forward to I think.

Sure, but that seems to be a moot point since we know that all of them will be eliminated.

[kyleisalive]

Stacking the deck to aim for a FF win instead of letting it happen on its own doesn't demonstrate strength and doesn't support women.  There's no equality to setting things up differently to accommodate specific genders over others.  FF teams should win on normal, balanced seasons.  And more than that, if a FF team doesn't win, it's a lousy take that the season is lesser because literally anyone else won on their own merit.

When Will and James won TAR32, people on these forums complained that they shouldn't have.  IMO that's an idiotic take no matter what way you cut it.  TAR has had winners of countless backgrounds and relationship types.  If someone can't enjoy the show because it doesn't unfold the way that they don't want it to, I'd suggest creating a fan-fiction instead.  Or watch something scripted.  You're not going to get what you want from this show every time.  Life's not fair; womp womp.

[Brannockdevice]

Stacking the deck to aim for a FF win instead of letting it happen on its own doesn't demonstrate strength and doesn't support women.  There's no equality to setting things up differently to accommodate specific genders over others.  FF teams should win on normal, balanced seasons.  And more than that, if a FF team doesn't win, it's a lousy take that the season is lesser because literally anyone else won on their own merit.

When Will and James won TAR32, people on these forums complained that they shouldn't have.  IMO that's an idiotic take no matter what way you cut it.  TAR has had winners of countless backgrounds and relationship types.  If someone can't enjoy the show because it doesn't unfold the way that they don't want it to, I'd suggest creating a fan-fiction instead.  Or watch something scripted.  You're not going to get what you want from this show every time.  Life's not fair; womp womp.

Correct, life is not fair. And that’s exactly the point of all this - to make it fair.

[kyleisalive]

Stacking the deck to aim for a FF win instead of letting it happen on its own doesn't demonstrate strength and doesn't support women.  There's no equality to setting things up differently to accommodate specific genders over others.  FF teams should win on normal, balanced seasons.  And more than that, if a FF team doesn't win, it's a lousy take that the season is lesser because literally anyone else won on their own merit.

When Will and James won TAR32, people on these forums complained that they shouldn't have.  IMO that's an idiotic take no matter what way you cut it.  TAR has had winners of countless backgrounds and relationship types.  If someone can't enjoy the show because it doesn't unfold the way that they don't want it to, I'd suggest creating a fan-fiction instead.  Or watch something scripted.  You're not going to get what you want from this show every time.  Life's not fair; womp womp.

Correct, life is not fair. And that’s exactly the point of all this - to make it fair.

That's a bit absurd in my opinion.  Redressing a perceived balance by putting other people aside to do it isn't equality; it isn't feminist; it isn't helpful for fairness.  It enforces the idea that the only way women can win on this show is if you have to give them extra help, only reinforcing that they can't do it themselves.

What you're suggesting isn't doing what you think it's doing.  It insists that women need to be coddled to victory.

[Traveldude1]

Just look at S17's and S25's winners for further proof. Amy/Maya were dead in the water, did mediocre all race, but got lucky because a bogus end of race twist that crowned them as one of the more controversial winners. And the cast of S17 was pretty slanted (arguably) with only 1 competitive co-ed team and no real M/M threat. Coddled? Maybe not, but definitely suspect.

[Brannockdevice]

Stacking the deck to aim for a FF win instead of letting it happen on its own doesn't demonstrate strength and doesn't support women.  There's no equality to setting things up differently to accommodate specific genders over others.  FF teams should win on normal, balanced seasons.  And more than that, if a FF team doesn't win, it's a lousy take that the season is lesser because literally anyone else won on their own merit.

When Will and James won TAR32, people on these forums complained that they shouldn't have.  IMO that's an idiotic take no matter what way you cut it.  TAR has had winners of countless backgrounds and relationship types.  If someone can't enjoy the show because it doesn't unfold the way that they don't want it to, I'd suggest creating a fan-fiction instead.  Or watch something scripted.  You're not going to get what you want from this show every time.  Life's not fair; womp womp.

Correct, life is not fair. And that’s exactly the point of all this - to make it fair.

That's a bit absurd in my opinion.  Redressing a perceived imbalance by putting other people aside to do it isn't equality; it isn't feminist; it isn't helpful for fairness.  It enforces the idea that the only way women can win on this show is if you have to give them extra help, only reinforcing that they can't do it themselves.

What you're suggesting isn't doing what you think it's doing.  It insists that women need to be coddled to victory.

"Redressing a perceived imbalance by putting other people aside to do it isn't equality" so by this very logic, the race should be 100% physical, and only be run by the strongest, most physical and athletic teams. After all, having puzzles or memory challenges would be unfair to jocks because they aren't smart. In fact, let's no longer cast elderly couples. Dave and Margaretta, Peggy and Claire and Bill and Cathi should have never been cast because they aren't physical. Maybe we should change the race so that it is one episode only and whoever can lift the heaviest boulder can win the one million dollars.

[kyleisalive]

Stacking the deck to aim for a FF win instead of letting it happen on its own doesn't demonstrate strength and doesn't support women.  There's no equality to setting things up differently to accommodate specific genders over others.  FF teams should win on normal, balanced seasons.  And more than that, if a FF team doesn't win, it's a lousy take that the season is lesser because literally anyone else won on their own merit.

When Will and James won TAR32, people on these forums complained that they shouldn't have.  IMO that's an idiotic take no matter what way you cut it.  TAR has had winners of countless backgrounds and relationship types.  If someone can't enjoy the show because it doesn't unfold the way that they don't want it to, I'd suggest creating a fan-fiction instead.  Or watch something scripted.  You're not going to get what you want from this show every time.  Life's not fair; womp womp.

Correct, life is not fair. And that’s exactly the point of all this - to make it fair.

That's a bit absurd in my opinion.  Redressing a perceived imbalance by putting other people aside to do it isn't equality; it isn't feminist; it isn't helpful for fairness.  It enforces the idea that the only way women can win on this show is if you have to give them extra help, only reinforcing that they can't do it themselves.

What you're suggesting isn't doing what you think it's doing.  It insists that women need to be coddled to victory.

"Redressing a perceived imbalance by putting other people aside to do it isn't equality" so by this very logic, the race should be 100% physical, and only be run by the strongest, most physical and athletic teams. After all, having puzzles or memory challenges would be unfair to jocks because they aren't smart. In fact, let's no longer cast elderly couples. Dave and Margaretta, Peggy and Claire and Bill and Cathi should have never been cast because they aren't physical. Maybe we should change the race so that it is one episode only and whoever can lift the heaviest boulder can win the one million dollars.

I think you’re reading what I’m saying and taking the opposite message.  I’m saying throw *anyone* in, but don’t stack the tasks to align more with typically-female-strong activities and don’t stack the cast with women to push a FF win.  Doing that would imply women need production meddling to win and can’t do it on their own merit.  And that is problematic.

[RachelLeVega]

Just now seeing the cast info to surprise myself and did not realize that in addition to 90-min. episodes, I'm gonna have to memorize a 13-team ensemble.

Please don't let it be a Scramble in the first leg again. CBS really shows no mercy for my phalanges.

[Parovic]

Well at least the race is back to global route

not just S33/34/35 single/dual continent route tbh

[ianthebalance]

I’ve been thinking about the casting more men than women on average and it made me remember a strange casting pattern: consistently casting same sex men couples but very rarely ever same sex women couples. That also contributes to the more men than women teams on the show

[Brannockdevice]

Stacking the deck to aim for a FF win instead of letting it happen on its own doesn't demonstrate strength and doesn't support women.  There's no equality to setting things up differently to accommodate specific genders over others.  FF teams should win on normal, balanced seasons.  And more than that, if a FF team doesn't win, it's a lousy take that the season is lesser because literally anyone else won on their own merit.

When Will and James won TAR32, people on these forums complained that they shouldn't have.  IMO that's an idiotic take no matter what way you cut it.  TAR has had winners of countless backgrounds and relationship types.  If someone can't enjoy the show because it doesn't unfold the way that they don't want it to, I'd suggest creating a fan-fiction instead.  Or watch something scripted.  You're not going to get what you want from this show every time.  Life's not fair; womp womp.

Correct, life is not fair. And that’s exactly the point of all this - to make it fair.

That's a bit absurd in my opinion.  Redressing a perceived imbalance by putting other people aside to do it isn't equality; it isn't feminist; it isn't helpful for fairness.  It enforces the idea that the only way women can win on this show is if you have to give them extra help, only reinforcing that they can't do it themselves.

What you're suggesting isn't doing what you think it's doing.  It insists that women need to be coddled to victory.

"Redressing a perceived imbalance by putting other people aside to do it isn't equality" so by this very logic, the race should be 100% physical, and only be run by the strongest, most physical and athletic teams. After all, having puzzles or memory challenges would be unfair to jocks because they aren't smart. In fact, let's no longer cast elderly couples. Dave and Margaretta, Peggy and Claire and Bill and Cathi should have never been cast because they aren't physical. Maybe we should change the race so that it is one episode only and whoever can lift the heaviest boulder can win the one million dollars.

I think you’re reading what I’m saying and taking the opposite message.  I’m saying throw *anyone* in, but don’t stack the tasks to align more with typically-female-strong activities and don’t stack the cast with women to push a FF win.  Doing that would imply women need production meddling to win and can’t do it on their own merit.  And that is problematic.

I’m curious if you feel the same way about the 50% BIPOC rule. If that’s fair game then why not have 50% women?

[kyleisalive]

I'm not sure I've ever brought up the BIPOC rule.  Frankly, I never really had a take on it.  I'm all for inclusivity on the show, but the rule plays a really weird game if you have to abide by hard-and-fast, locked-in teams every race.  If you're required to have 4 black teams, 4 latinx teams, 4 white teams, and now all of those also have to have one FF team, one MM team, and two MF teams every race, then sure, I guess?  It's still exclusionist to do something like that and opens the door to tokenism, which I think is very problematic.  Now you can set your watch to knowing that you can root for the token white FF team that's mandated to be on the show.  Hooray?

What I do support is CBS' effort to diversify casts.  The U.S. population is ~60% white. Close to ~20% of the U.S. is Hispanic.  ~12% of the U.S. is black.  It's a noble effort to find a balance in reality TV casting and it's a direction they should strive for, but if CBS wanted a balance reflective of the actual U.S. population as it is today, then there wouldn't be a balance (if that makes sense).  You would have six or seven white teams; two Hispanic teams, and one or two black teams.

More importantly, to me, is that the show is good.  I'll watch anyone who goes on the show; I trust the editors/producers to tell a compelling story no matter the players' backgrounds.  I'm not watching the show for divisions of races or genders because in my day-to-day I'm not really putting these in the forefront.  We should be normalizing a space where we're celebratory of people instead of constantly compensating (though I do agree we should be supportive of communities that are marginalized).  As I said in my past messages (that you've cascaded there), I'm not for pressing on the scale to force a win.  There is no celebration of diversity by outweighing female players.  Doing that only has viewers saying "well of course women were going to win-- CBS/TAR minimized the amount of men this season."  You instantly call the validity of the teams' successes into question the second you do that.

Let people win on their own merits.  Throw anyone into the race-- that goes for ages, genders, races, orientations-- since that mixing pot is part of the joy of the show.  Just don't force it.  Because that disingenuousness diminishes any attempt at balance.

[georgiapeach]

I'm not sure I've ever brought up the BIPOC rule.  Frankly, I never really had a take on it.  I'm all for inclusivity on the show, but the rule plays a really weird game if you have to abide by hard-and-fast, locked-in teams every race.  If you're required to have 4 black teams, 4 latinx teams, 4 white teams, and now all of those also have to have one FF team, one MM team, and two MF teams every race, then sure, I guess?  It's still exclusionist to do something like that and opens the door to tokenism, which I think is very problematic.  Now you can set your watch to knowing that you can root for the token white FF team that's mandated to be on the show.  Hooray?

What I do support is CBS' effort to diversify casts.  The U.S. population is ~60% white. Close to ~20% of the U.S. is Hispanic.  ~12% of the U.S. is black.  It's a noble effort to find a balance in reality TV casting and it's a direction they should strive for, but if CBS wanted a balance reflective of the actual U.S. population as it is today, then there wouldn't be a balance (if that makes sense).  You would have six or seven white teams; two Hispanic teams, and one or two black teams.

More importantly, to me, is that the show is good.  I'll watch anyone who goes on the show; I trust the editors/producers to tell a compelling story no matter the players' backgrounds.  I'm not watching the show for divisions of races or genders because in my day-to-day I'm not really putting these in the forefront.  We should be normalizing a space where we're celebratory of people instead of constantly compensating (though I do agree we should be supportive of communities that are marginalized).  As I said in my past messages (that you've cascaded there), I'm not for pressing on the scale to force a win.  There is no celebration of diversity by outweighing female players.  Doing that only has viewers saying "well of course women were going to win-- CBS/TAR minimized the amount of men this season."  You instantly call the validity of the teams' successes into question the second you do that.

Let people win on their own merits.  Throw anyone into the race-- that goes for ages, genders, races, orientations-- since that mixing pot is part of the joy of the show.  Just don't force it.  Because that disingenuousness diminishes any attempt at balance.

Absolutely beautifully put. Agree 1000%. Thank you a million Kyle!! 

[Brannockdevice]

I'm not sure I've ever brought up the BIPOC rule.  Frankly, I never really had a take on it.  I'm all for inclusivity on the show, but the rule plays a really weird game if you have to abide by hard-and-fast, locked-in teams every race.  If you're required to have 4 black teams, 4 latinx teams, 4 white teams, and now all of those also have to have one FF team, one MM team, and two MF teams every race, then sure, I guess?  It's still exclusionist to do something like that and opens the door to tokenism, which I think is very problematic.  Now you can set your watch to knowing that you can root for the token white FF team that's mandated to be on the show.  Hooray?

What I do support is CBS' effort to diversify casts.  The U.S. population is ~60% white. Close to ~20% of the U.S. is Hispanic.  ~12% of the U.S. is black.  It's a noble effort to find a balance in reality TV casting and it's a direction they should strive for, but if CBS wanted a balance reflective of the actual U.S. population as it is today, then there wouldn't be a balance (if that makes sense).  You would have six or seven white teams; two Hispanic teams, and one or two black teams.

More importantly, to me, is that the show is good.  I'll watch anyone who goes on the show; I trust the editors/producers to tell a compelling story no matter the players' backgrounds.  I'm not watching the show for divisions of races or genders because in my day-to-day I'm not really putting these in the forefront.  We should be normalizing a space where we're celebratory of people instead of constantly compensating (though I do agree we should be supportive of communities that are marginalized).  As I said in my past messages (that you've cascaded there), I'm not for pressing on the scale to force a win.  There is no celebration of diversity by outweighing female players.  Doing that only has viewers saying "well of course women were going to win-- CBS/TAR minimized the amount of men this season."  You instantly call the validity of the teams' successes into question the second you do that.

Let people win on their own merits.  Throw anyone into the race-- that goes for ages, genders, races, orientations-- since that mixing pot is part of the joy of the show.  Just don't force it.  Because that disingenuousness diminishes any attempt at balance.

It’s clear we have substantially different opinions that cannot be reconciled. I’m not going to be interacting further.

See you guys next season.

[ianthebalance]

Best way to sum this up imo: there’s a difference between equal opportunity and equal outcome. We can argue that the show isn’t creating equal opportunity for the female contestants and minorities but even if everything is fully equal in team selection, task variance, etc; there shouldn’t and won’t be any guarantee of any specific type of team winning