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Archive => RFF Archived Boards => The Amazing Race 20 Spoilers => Topic started by: Neobie on December 01, 2011, 11:03:09 PM
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So it doesn't spill over and hijack other threads...
LEG ONE
Apskip may have some of this already. But I assume the first leg will be a flight into Buenos Aires, then moving on from there towards another place in Argentina? If so, the two most likely flights from Los Angeles, leaving half an hour apart and arriving an hour apart, are:
AA 276 from Los Angeles to Miami, 2255-0640 (confirmed)
AA 961 from Miami to Buenos Aires, 1055-2150
(There is AR 1303 from Miami to Buenos Aires EZE, 0900-1950, but it's a different airline with no code-share with AA.)
AM 469 from Los Angeles to Mexico City, 2325-0455
AM 30 from Mexico City to Buenos Aires EZE, 0830-2050
Also possible is a flight via Panama City (CM 303 to CM 279 or CM 363), but the first connection's transfer time is too short (38min) and the second one arrives a little too late (0056 the next day).
LP 2605 flies from Los Angeles to Lima to Buenos Aires, but it arrives at 1515, too early for us.
Other flight connections are possible, but they either require changes to different airline alliances or leave/arrive at strange times.
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LEG THREE
The AV 88 that Delgado was on left from EZE and not AEP, so teams must have been on this:
PZ 704 from Buenos Aires EZE to Asuncion, 0845-1035
It'd be really strange to have a team check in so late at night, could someone have been caught on a later flight?
AR 1214/PU 703 from Buenos Aires EZE via Montevideo to Asuncion, 0940-1435
PU 366/PU 703 from Buenos Aires EZE via Montevideo to Asuncion, 1040-1435
G3 7431 from Buenos Aires EZE to Asuncion, 1435-1625
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Neobie,
Code shares only apply for low-cost flights. Since Amazing Race teams travel on expensive open/refundable Y class tickets, there is no need to worry about interline code-shares.
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I was thinking since the race provides tickets for the first leg they would want to keep the logistics cheap/simple...
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So it doesn't spill over and hijack other threads...
LEG ONE
Apskip may have some of this already. But I assume the first leg will be a flight into Buenos Aires, then moving on from there towards another place in Argentina? If so, the two most likely flights from Los Angeles, leaving half an hour apart and arriving an hour apart, are:
AA 276 from Los Angeles to Miami, 2255-0640 (confirmed)
AA 961 from Miami to Buenos Aires, 1055-2150
(There is AR 1303 from Miami to Buenos Aires EZE, 0900-1950, but it's a different airline with no code-share with AA.)
AM 469 from Los Angeles to Mexico City, 2325-0455
AM 30 from Mexico City to Buenos Aires EZE, 0830-2050
Also possible is a flight via Panama City (CM 303 to CM 279 or CM 363), but the first connection's transfer time is too short (38min) and the second one arrives a little too late (0056 the next day).
LP 2605 flies from Los Angeles to Lima to Buenos Aires, but it arrives at 1515, too early for us.
Other flight connections are possible, but they either require changes to different airline alliances or leave/arrive at strange times.
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LEG THREE
The AV 88 that Delgado was on left from EZE and not AEP, so teams must have been on this:
PZ 704 from Buenos Aires EZE to Asuncion, 0845-1035
It'd be really strange to have a team check in so late at night, could someone have been caught on a later flight?
AR 1214/PU 703 from Buenos Aires EZE via Montevideo to Asuncion, 0940-1435
PU 366/PU 703 from Buenos Aires EZE via Montevideo to Asuncion, 1040-1435
G3 7431 from Buenos Aires EZE to Asuncion, 1435-1625
It wasn't Apskp who posted the EZE coincident destination first: :waves:
Based on flights the only route that seems to work is going to Buenos Aires EZE:
Group 1 (the one we have pictures of at terminal 4):
AA 276 LAX MIA 10:55 pm landing at 6:40 am
AR 1303 MIA EZE 9:00 am landing at 7:50 pm
Group 2:
AM 469 LAX MEX 11:25 pm landing at 4:55 am
AM 30 MEX EZE 8:30 am landing at 8:50 pm
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Thanks to some more wonderful detective work from Docol, we know that teams are likely on one of the two TAM flights that left after 5.23pm:
6pm to Sao Paolo or 8pm to Montevideo
Our previous info suggests Sao Paulo to get to Germany, but checking in at 5.23pm is really cutting it fine..
The only evening flight to Germany from Sao Paulo is the TAM 11.25pm to Frankfurt, arriving at 2.10pm.
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Doesn't look like Montevideo is our destination. If there were to be a leg there TPTB would have probably released them later for a 4.13am or 7.45am flight to arrive in daylight, as opposed to having them hanging around in the dark upon arrival.
That said, if teams don't make the Sao Paulo direct, Montevideo also works as a way to get to Sao Paulo:
PU 704 from Asuncion to Montevideo: 2000-2245
PU 636 from Montevideo to Sao Paulo: 2359-0310
This means, however, that they would have missed all the flights to Europe, until 5.15pm on 3 Dec!
So it looks like teams are on the direct flight:
PZ 712 from Asuncion to Sao Paulo: 1800-2105
Which connects to:
JJ 8062 from Sao Paulo to Milan: 2240-1310, which gets to Munich 1h15 before a Frankfurt connection
JJ 8108 from Sao Paulo to Paris: 2320-1340
JJ 8070 from Sao Paulo to Frankfurt: 2325-1410
TP 86 from Sao Paulo to Lisbon: 2330-1120
JJ 8084 from Sao Paulo to London: 2350-1320
TK 16 from Sao Paulo to Istanbul: 0115-1735
I was looking at connection options via Munich (for production), and almost all of Western Europe can be ruled out. One particular spot we can look at for Legs 4 or 5, though, if Munich is a connection at all, is the Balkans - almost all the cities there are best reached from Sao Paulo via Munich...
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From here on out let's put all transport related posts here please...it makes it MUCH simpler to find stuff later! :ty3:
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I have been considering the Torino information from a transportation standpoint. If I were wanting to get to Torino, the closest major airports are the 2 in Milan, only 80 miles away. Only if there were a separate leg in Rome would it make sense to get to Torino from Rome.
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Couldn't they just as easily fly to Rome then take a train/bus to Turin? December 4th sees teams in Rome and Phil in Turin shooting stand-ups; while it's possible (and would be nice) to get a Rome leg again, I think TPTB forced the teams to fly to Rome and travel by ground to Turin so Phil/production could get a jump on things by flying to Milan.
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We now have info showing teams arr 12/4 as well...more to come.
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Couldn't they just as easily fly to Rome then take a train/bus to Turin? December 4th sees teams in Rome and Phil in Turin shooting stand-ups; while it's possible (and would be nice) to get a Rome leg again, I think TPTB forced the teams to fly to Rome and travel by ground to Turin so Phil/production could get a jump on things by flying to Milan.
Yes it is possible, but the 325 miles is an issue (vs. 80 for Milan to Torino). The quickest train schedules from Roma Termini to Torino Puerto Nova required 4 hours 21 minutes while those from Milan are 56 minutes.
There is no issue on Phil getting to Torino ahead of the teams from either Milan or Rome. With a 12 hour pit stop he would be ahead by close to 12 hours because trains run at all hours.
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Just in case my thinking expressed in another thread about Rome being an own-leg airport stop and not just a connection point to Torino is off, I looked at evening connecting flights from Rome to Torino. There is about one every hour up until 950pm. The total flying time is 1 hour 20 minutes.
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In another thread there has been speculation based on the hypothesis that the only flights to HNL are from SYD, ICN or NRT and that Sydney would be preferred. Not according to my analysis. Here are the 12/19 flights into HNL from those airports (note that you gain back the day by crossing the international date line so you land in the morning of the date when you left in the afternoon or early evening):
SYD 2
ICN 3
NRT 8
So this data argues for Narita.
Another perspective is to see if connections can be made from Bangkok for same-day arrival in time to make available above connections. The answer to that one is:
SYD 0 (it doesn't compute)
ICN 2
NRT 5
So it looks to me like probably Narita and maybe Seoul. Remember that David and Jeff going south from Cairns to Sydney in AR4 while Jon/Kelly and Chip/Reichen went to Narita were left "holding the bag." And Cairns is at 17 degrees south latitude while Bangkok is 13 north latitude. Sydney is 34 degrees south and Honolulu 21 degrees north. Seoul is 36 degrees and Narita 37 degrees north.
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There are more flights to consider. When I said Tokyo I meant all flights from Japan.
That being said I think these flights deserve the highest consideration: Monday December 19th from Osaka
DL 278 KIX HNL taking off at 8:50 pm arriving 9:30 am
HA 450 KIX HNL taking off at 9:16 pm arriving 9:35 am
JL 78 KIX HNL taking off at 9:25 pm arriving 9:50 am
These all fit the time line of spotting racers at One Waterfront Towers at 10:40 am local time.
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Getting more info that racers may have been spotted earlier, I think we need to be able to place them there by about 9.
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OK, Peach, as the song goes "I Can Do That."
Here are the flights that reached HNL in time for your revised spotting time, all from Narita:
DL638 1859 0621
UA880 1915 0628
CI18 2012 0736
JL76 1955 0718
DL646 2049 0809
Here is the only one from Seoul that fits that criteria:
KE51 1901 0733
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I will go one step further to see how the connections in Narita from Bangkok to Honolulu line up for same day (Dec. 19). The answer is nicely for these BKK NRT flights:
DL284 0544 1314
UA804 0659 1438
TG676 0823 1605
JL708 0833 1618
NH954 0833 1616
All flights give a connect time ranging from 7.5 hours down to 2.5 hours.
All that is lacking from these is the ability for teams to be spotted in Bangkok anytime later in the day on Dec. 19.
I cannot judge how important that is.
There are no same day flights through Seoul that can connect and get to HNL in time. The only flight close is the prior evening of Dec. 18 BKK ICN KE652 2250 0538.
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For the specific flight information that nixes Sydney as a reasonable connect point between BKK and HNL, here it is:
Latest flight that would work on Dec. 18 BKK SYD EK418 2018 0935+1 connecting to JQ3 SYD HNL 1750 0652
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The only way teams could be in Osaka and Honolulu on the same day is if they were on one of the following three flights:
DL 278 Delta Air Lines 8:38 PM - 8:31 AM
HA 450 Hawaiian Airlines 9:16 PM - 9:32 AM
JL 78 JAL 9:20 PM - 9:15 AM
But this would require a very short rest at the Pit Stop in Osaka, even 12 hours wouldn't cut it.
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The only way teams could be in Osaka and Honolulu on the same day is if they were on one of the following three flights:
DL 278 Delta Air Lines 8:38 PM - 8:31 AM
HA 450 Hawaiian Airlines 9:16 PM - 9:32 AM
JL 78 JAL 9:20 PM - 9:15 AM
But this would require a very short rest at the Pit Stop in Osaka, even 12 hours wouldn't cut it.
We've had shortened Pit Stops after the penultimate Pit Stop (Prague comes to mind, and I think Moscow also). It could also be a zero hour Pit Stop with Phil hauling ass to KIX after eliminating the last team (though this leaves a lot to chance).
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Hey, Dom EL and Zack,
Perhaps some information from Peach posted above will put to rest your notions that the flights originated in Osaka:
Offline georgiapeach
Posts: 32829
Amazing Race International Correspondent
Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 12:15:54 PM »
Quote
Getting more info that racers may have been spotted earlier, I think we need to be able to place them there by about 9.
There means at the site of the high-wire task. Osaka-originated flights are late by at least one hour of doing that. My hypothesis, shown in a different thread above, is that the spotting in Osaka was of decoys and that the real F3 went through Narita slightly earlier (see my post above).
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There's pics of Phil + team in Osaka though, which suggests that it's an actual stop.
Though they could always force teams to connect through Tokyo or take alternate methods to get to Tokyo.
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For heavens sake. Osaka is a real PitStop if I have ever seen one.
There is a Delta flight in from Osaka that arrives 8 something.
We don't know what time the source was in Osaka...he says today which is dated 11/19...but suppose he wrote that at 0001 and was referring to 11/18? I don't have the answer,but in Osaka they were.
Let's go with the obvious for now.
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12-19-11
KIX Osaka DL 278 Delta Air Lines scheduled arr: 9:30 AM ACTUAL ARR: 8:31 AM
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The EXIF info on the pitstop pic at Osaka Castle says it was taken at 2011-12-18T23:28:17-05:00.
Osaka is GMT +9 so that would make it 09:28:17 local time in Osaka - Sunday December 18.
So Phil would have no trouble making any of these three departures from Osaka on Sunday December 18th:
HNL Honolulu DL 278 Delta Air Lines 20:50 20:39 N7 Landed On-time 333 08:31 - Sun 18-Dec-2011
HNL Honolulu HA 450 Hawaiian Airlines 21:15 21:04 N15 Landed On-time 763 08:33 - Sun 18-Dec-2011
HNL Honolulu JL 78 JAL 21:25 21:24 S30 Landed On-time 767 09:07 - Sun 18-Dec-2011
The teams could have had a better than 24 hour pit stop and taken the same flight numbers on Monday December 19:
HNL Honolulu DL 278 Delta Air Lines 20:50 20:38 N6 Landed On-time 333 08:31 - Mon 19-Dec-2011
HNL Honolulu HA 450 Hawaiian Airlines 21:15 21:16 N15 Landed On-time 763 09:32 - Mon 19-Dec-2011
HNL Honolulu JL 78 JAL 21:25 21:20 S30 Landed On-time 767 09:15 - Mon 19-Dec-2011
I think the crossing of the date line is causing some confusion - because the perception is that you arrive at your destination before you left.
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12-19-11
KIX Osaka DL 278 Delta Air Lines scheduled arr: 9:30 AM ACTUAL ARR: 8:31 AM
That's one of the flights I posted yesterday :mas25
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The exit info on the pitstop pic at Osaka Castle says it was taken at 2011-12-18T23:28:17-05:00.
Osaka is GMT +9 so that would make it 09:28:17 local time in Osaka - Sunday December 18.
So Phil would have no trouble making any of these three departures from Osaka on Sunday December 18th:
HNL Honolulu DL 278 Delta Air Lines 20:50 20:39 N7 Landed On-time 333 08:31 - Sun 18-Dec-2011
HNL Honolulu HA 450 Hawaiian Airlines 21:15 21:04 N15 Landed On-time 763 08:33 - Sun 18-Dec-2011
HNL Honolulu JL 78 JAL 21:25 21:24 S30 Landed On-time 767 09:07 - Sun 18-Dec-2011
The teams could have had a better than 24 hour pit stop and taken the same flight numbers on Monday December 19:
HNL Honolulu DL 278 Delta Air Lines 20:50 20:38 N6 Landed On-time 333 08:31 - Mon 19-Dec-2011
HNL Honolulu HA 450 Hawaiian Airlines 21:15 21:16 N15 Landed On-time 763 09:32 - Mon 19-Dec-2011
HNL Honolulu JL 78 JAL 21:25 21:20 S30 Landed On-time 767 09:15 - Mon 19-Dec-2011
I did a "calibraion" test of one of his shots where there is a clock in it. Based on that the check ins were around 7:20 pm local time.
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The exit info on the pitstop pic at Osaka Castle says it was taken at 2011-12-18T23:28:17-05:00.
Osaka is GMT +9 so that would make it 09:28:17 local time in Osaka - Sunday December 18.
So Phil would have no trouble making any of these three departures from Osaka on Sunday December 18th:
HNL Honolulu DL 278 Delta Air Lines 20:50 20:39 N7 Landed On-time 333 08:31 - Sun 18-Dec-2011
HNL Honolulu HA 450 Hawaiian Airlines 21:15 21:04 N15 Landed On-time 763 08:33 - Sun 18-Dec-2011
HNL Honolulu JL 78 JAL 21:25 21:24 S30 Landed On-time 767 09:07 - Sun 18-Dec-2011
The teams could have had a better than 24 hour pit stop and taken the same flight numbers on Monday December 19:
HNL Honolulu DL 278 Delta Air Lines 20:50 20:38 N6 Landed On-time 333 08:31 - Mon 19-Dec-2011
HNL Honolulu HA 450 Hawaiian Airlines 21:15 21:16 N15 Landed On-time 763 09:32 - Mon 19-Dec-2011
HNL Honolulu JL 78 JAL 21:25 21:20 S30 Landed On-time 767 09:15 - Mon 19-Dec-2011
I did a "calibraion" test of one of his shots where there is a clock in it. Based on that the check ins were around 7:20 pm local time.
Ummm, I think the sun would be down by that time. Sunset at 4:51 PM
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-- recalculating -- :cmaslol
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12-19-11
KIX Osaka DL 278 Delta Air Lines scheduled arr: 9:30 AM ACTUAL ARR: 8:31 AM
Peach,
It was you who stated that teams were spotted in Honolulu around 9am. That presumably does not mean at Honolulu International Airport; it means on their way downtown. How do teams get through customs at a major airport and probably a minimum of 5 miles in a taxi in 30 minutes total? This does not compute.
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12-19-11
KIX Osaka DL 278 Delta Air Lines scheduled arr: 9:30 AM ACTUAL ARR: 8:31 AM
Peach,
It was you who stated that teams were spotted in Honolulu around 9am. That presumably does not mean at Honolulu International Airport; it means on their way downtown. How do teams get through customs at a major airport and probably a minimum of 5 miles in a taxi in 30 minutes total? This does not compute.
Excuse me? I don't believe I said that.
Getting more info that racers may have been spotted earlier, I think we need to be able to place them there by about 9.
I think I said MAY have been spotted. Photos began around 9 ish...were those just of helicopters and setup? I don't have exact data, when and if I do I will say so.
What I was trying to say was that a photo on the wires at say 10AM does NOT take into account the security briefings and instructions...so a wire sighting of 10 AM could be a an arrival much closer to 9. Sorry for any confusion.
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I have completed a MapQuest analysis of the most direct route from Honolulu International Airport to One Waterfront Tower at 425 South St. in downtown Honolulu. Here it is:
15 mins / 7.07 miles
Honolulu International Airport (HNL)
300 Rodgers Blvd # 12, Honolulu, HI 96819
(808) 836-6411 | website
1. Start out going south on Rodgers Blvd. 0.06 mi
2. Make a U-turn onto Rodgers Blvd.
If you reach Aolele St you've gone a little too far 0.2 mi
3. Turn right onto N Nimitz Hwy/HI-92 E. Continue to follow HI-92 E.
HI-92 E is just past N Nimitz Hwy
If you are on N Nimitz Hwy and reach Catlin Dr you've gone a little too far. 5.2 mi
4. Turn left onto South St. South St is 0.1 miles past Channel St
If you reach Keawe St you've gone a little too far 0.07 mi
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The exit info on the pitstop pic at Osaka Castle says it was taken at 2011-12-18T23:28:17-05:00.
Osaka is GMT +9 so that would make it 09:28:17 local time in Osaka - Sunday December 18.
So Phil would have no trouble making any of these three departures from Osaka on Sunday December 18th:
HNL Honolulu DL 278 Delta Air Lines 20:50 20:39 N7 Landed On-time 333 08:31 - Sun 18-Dec-2011
HNL Honolulu HA 450 Hawaiian Airlines 21:15 21:04 N15 Landed On-time 763 08:33 - Sun 18-Dec-2011
HNL Honolulu JL 78 JAL 21:25 21:24 S30 Landed On-time 767 09:07 - Sun 18-Dec-2011
The teams could have had a better than 24 hour pit stop and taken the same flight numbers on Monday December 19:
HNL Honolulu DL 278 Delta Air Lines 20:50 20:38 N6 Landed On-time 333 08:31 - Mon 19-Dec-2011
HNL Honolulu HA 450 Hawaiian Airlines 21:15 21:16 N15 Landed On-time 763 09:32 - Mon 19-Dec-2011
HNL Honolulu JL 78 JAL 21:25 21:20 S30 Landed On-time 767 09:15 - Mon 19-Dec-2011
I did a "calibraion" test of one of his shots where there is a clock in it. Based on that the check ins were around 7:20 pm local time.
Ummm, I think the sun would be down by that time. Sunset at 4:51 PM
I can't seem to get the exif data on these shots today! I was able to see it yesterday. What I did was to use this shot in the train station to correct the exif offset. I may have used the wrong numbers. If you can still get the exif data see if you can figure out the offset. The clock says 1:05 and it must be PM.
https://plus.google.com/100956205360836295806/posts?banner=pwa
Going at it another way
This shot was taken between 1:20 and 1:40 pm (assumes December 18th).
(http://forum.realityfanforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=26453.0;attach=196508;image)
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The photo from the train station has a time of 2011-12-17T23:11:56-05:00 (note its the day before).
So from the train photo if 2011-12-17T23:11:56-05:00 = 13:05:00
Then from the pit stop photo 2011-12-18T23:28:17-05:00 = 13:22:00
So your time from the shadows is spot on!
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I asked myself whether normal customs processing times might be avoidable with pre-clearance in Japan. As best as I can determine, the answer is that it cannot. Here are the origination points from which pre-clearance is possible:
Most major Canadian Airports (Toronto-Pearson, Montréal-Trudeau, Ottawa Macdonald-Cartier, Vancouver, Calgary, etc.), Queen Beatrix International Airport in Aruba, Grand Bahama and Lynden Pindling International Airports in the Bahamas, Bermuda International Airport in Bermuda, and Dublin and Shannon International Airports in Ireland.
Japan is not on that list.
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It is theoretically possible that DL 278 KIX HNL was the one taken by the F3 teams on Monday Dec. 19. It is likely that Phil and some WRP staff were on any of 3 flights KIX HNL on Sunday Dec. 18 that departed around 9pm and arrived between about 830am and 9am.
However, I still believe that the tightness of the schedule from the 831am arrival of DL278 (far ahead of schedule) would have caused WRP to put the F3 teams on flights NRT HNL which arrived hours earlier from 621am to 809am.
I want to track the last possible train schedule that could have gotten teams from Osaka to Narita on the afternoon of Dec. 19. This tells us what the pit stop length may have been. To give you the answer before showing the analysis, the pit stop would have been slightly less than 12 hours with the prior leg finish around 122pm. Here is the timing of the rail journey:
Dep. Osaka 1311 to Shin-Osaka 1315
Dep. Shin-Osaka 1317 to Shinagawa 1553
Dep. Shinagawa 1620 arr. NARITA International Terminal 2 1725 arr. Int. Terminal 1 1729
Note - alternate rail connections are available about every 30 minutes due to the twice an hour Shinagawa to Narita schedule.
Departures NRT HNL:
DL638 1859 0621
UA880 1915 0628
CI18 2012 0736
JL76 1955 0718
DL646 2049 0809
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Apskip, you don't seem to know about the the Shinkansen Nozomi bullet train! It runs 4x per hour!
Here, Teams can leave Osaka as late as 1:45 pm and arrive 5:53 pm at Narita Terminal 2 in time for the 7:00 pm flight DL 638 to HNL:
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Apskip, you don't seem to know about the the Shinkansen Nozomi bullet train! It runs 4x per hour!
Here, Teams can leave Osaka as late as 1:45 pm and arrive 5:53 pm at Narita Terminal 2 in time for the 7:00 pm flight DL 638 to HNL:
First of all, Chateau, I rode on the Shinkansen line multiple decades ago and am personally familiar with schedules and stops along the main line from Toyko to Kyoto (just a few miles from Osaka).
I used the schedule for the Bullet Train between Shin-Osaka and Tokyo but not from Tokyo (via Shinagawa) out to Narita. Chateau, I bet you don't know without looking it up how many trains per the relevant hour of the trip occur on each segment of the line. Let me enlighten you:
Osaka to Shin-Osaka on the local line 18 between 1300 and 1400
Shin-Osaka to Shinagawa on the Shinkansen line 7 between 1500 and 1600 (not 4, Chateau)
Shinagawa to Narita on the Keisei Skyliner line max. 2 per hour all day long
Alternate - Tokyo to Nippori 19 on Keihou Tohoku Negishi line between 1600 and 1700 connecting in Nippori to Keisei Skyliner train to Narita 4
So, if you want to go through Tokyo, the schedule is slightly better due to 4 trains/hour vs. 2 from Shinagawa.
My main point is "Who cares how many trains there are on the Shinkansen line, which does not run all the way to Narita?"
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Apskip, you don't seem to know about the the Shinkansen Nozomi bullet train! It runs 4x per hour!
Here, Teams can leave Osaka as late as 1:45 pm and arrive 5:53 pm at Narita Terminal 2 in time for the 7:00 pm flight DL 638 to HNL:
First of all, Chateau, I rode on the Shinkansen line multiple decades ago and am personally familiar with schedules and stops along the main line from Toyko to Kyoto (just a few miles from Osaka).
I used the schedule for the Bullet Train between Shin-Osaka and Tokyo but not from Tokyo (via Shinagawa) out to Narita. Chateau, I bet you don't know without looking it up how many trains per the relevant hour of the trip occur on each segment of the line. Let me enlighten you:
Osaka to Shin-Osaka on the local line 18 between 1300 and 1400
Shin-Osaka to Shinagawa on the Shinkansen line 7 between 1500 and 1600 (not 4, Chateau)
Shinagawa to Narita on the Keisei Skyliner line max. 2 per hour all day long
Alternate - Tokyo to Nippori 19 on Keihou Tohoku Negishi line between 1600 and 1700 connecting in Nippori to Keisei Skyliner train to Narita 4
So, if you want to go through Tokyo, the schedule is slightly better due to 4 trains/hour vs. 2 from Shinagawa.
My main point is "Who cares how many trains there are on the Shinkansen line, which does not run all the way to Narita?"
Well you'd better dust off your memories because on-line trip planners are up to date and hard to beat!
I did know about the 7 Shinkansen per hour but it looks like you did not consider the 4 that are Shinkansen Nozomi. The train you selected was the slower Hikari and only runs twice per hour.
In the Race, accuracy matters! The actual scheduled departure of the Hikari was at 1:13 pm not 1:17 pm as you stated, the actual arrival at Shinagawa was 4:03 pm not the 3:53 pm as you stated.
Also, getting off the Bullet train in Shinagawa is not the best idea. You should stay on until the Tokyo station. The reason is that you will be closer to Nartia and you have more options to make the transfer. As you said, but did not implement, there is the twice per hour Narita Express plus the twice per hour Skyliner as well as other multi-transfer routes.
In the Race, getting there first matters! The route you proposed takes longer and arrives later than one taken by a Team using the Nozomi. Your route leaves Osaka at 1:11 pm and gets to Narita Terminal 2 at 5:25 pm. I can send a Team on a route leaving at 1:21 pm, by using the Nozomi, gets to Narita Terminal 2 at 5:21 pm!
Who cares! Winners do! :cmas16
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All this is too confusing for me :iok
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Of course, they could also force teams to fly to Narita. On the 19th there were two options:
JC3010 0815 0924
QR 802 1745 1904
If it's a 12(ish) hour Pit Stop, they can make either flight; if it's more than 18 hours they can take the second. The first flight provides a long layover (nearly 10 hours) while the second flight gives less than two hours to connect. My experience in NRT is admittedly nonexistent, but I wouldn't think that WRP would gamble on a two hour connection and risk teams to be a day behind when a safer alternative exists. Moreover WRP doesn't seem to want to spare any expense regarding getting teams to the final city (flying via Lufthansa in TAR 13, the shortened Pit Stops in TAR 13/15 to get teams together on a flight, taking a completely different flight after the sick pilot delayed things in TAR 18, etc).
Fearless prediction: 12 hour pit stop (finally!), Teams get the 'Fly to Honolulu!' clue and in the additional information are given that they must connect through Tokyo (if they aren't given what flight to take outright). JC3010 is used to get to NRT, while one of the options apskip gives is used to get to Honolulu.
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Zack,
I appreciate your vote of confidence for my hypothesis on the most likely route from Osaka to Tokyo. However, with all the delays from security procedures, check-ins, and possible delays in the flight, I find it unlikely that teams would have been placed on a flight from Osaka to Narita. They would probably have taken a train to reach Narita, of which you can see from earlier in this thread there are many dozens of options.
Also, if a flight was the chosen mode, teams would more likely have flown from Osaka's national airport ITM rather than international KIX. There were 4 flights from ITM to NRT on Dec. 19.
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Neobie,
You get 20 lashes with a wet noodle for placing your transportation information on this thread:
Re: The Amazing Race 20 » Timeline & Spoiler Summary
« Reply #45 on: Today at 12:57:44 AM »
Don't think we can use the TAR 13-19 production schedule anymore! Transport options are educated guesses unless otherwise noted:
SAT 26 NOVEMBER
AA 276 from Los Angeles to Miami, 2323-0648 (confirmed, scheduled 2255-0640)
SUN 27 NOVEMBER
AR 1303 from Miami to Buenos Aires EZE, 0900-2024 (0900-1950)
AA 961 from Miami to Buenos Aires EZE, 1109-2156 (1055-2150)
MON 28 NOVEMBER
AR 2450 from Buenos Aires AEP to Salta, 0745-0945 (0625-0840)
4M 4110 from Buenos Aires AEP to Salta, 0955-1220
AR 2454 from Buenos Aires AEP to Salta, 1250-1455 (1120-1335)
PIT STOP #1: SALTA (possible, but less likely, that teams take a bus ride on the 28th and race on the 29th)
TUE 29 NOVEMBER
Multiple flights from Salta to Buenos Aires AEP, 1h55
Bus from Salta to Buenos Aires, ~20h
WED 30 NOVEMBER
Multiple flights from Salta to Buenos Aires AEP, 1h55
PIT STOP #2: BUENOS AIRES (confirmed)
Bus from Buenos Aires to Asuncion, ~15h
THR 1 DECEMBER
PZ 704 from Buenos Aires EZE to Asuncion, 0918-1035
G3 7471 from Buenos Aires EZE to Asuncion, 1519-1625
PIT STOP #3: ASUNCION (confirmed)
FRI 2 DECEMBER
PZ 712 from Asuncion to Sao Paulo, 1800-2117
JJ 8062 from Sao Paulo to Milan, 2240-1400 (1310)
JJ 8108 from Sao Paulo to Paris, 2320-1340
JJ 8070 from Sao Paulo to Frankfurt, 2325-1514 (1410)
SAT 3 DECEMBER
AF 2322 from Paris to Munich, 1545-1700 (1535-1705)
LH 114 from Frankfurt to Munich, 1627-1710 (1620-1725)
IQ 1861 from Milan to Munich, 1705-1810 (1705-1820)
PIT STOP #4: BAVARIA (strange to have a night leg)
SUN 4 DECEMBER
LH 1854 from Munich to Milan, 0909-1006 (0905-1015)
Train from Milan to Turin, 1110-1255/1115-1310/1215-1410
(Not sure why teams would be spotted in Rome airport?)
PIT STOP #5: TURIN (confirmed)
There are direct flights from Milan to Baku, although they arrive at night. You can get from Baku to Dar Es Salaam or Nairobi via London, Dubai, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, or Paris. Nairobi then has good connections to most of Asia.
_________ End Neobie, Start apskip below
I have quite a few comments on your proposals:
1. I agree that one way either Salta to Buenos Aires or Buenos Aires to Salta should be by bus.
2. However, I think it would go the opposite of what you show, with Nov. 28 to Salta by bus and Nov. 29 from Salta by plane
3. You have a number of alternatives to get to Munich from Frankfurt, Paris or Milan by plane. I don't think that's how they did it. The distance from Frankfurt to Fussen is 417 km, with driving time of 4 hours 8 minutes vs. Munich to Fussen 168km and 1 hour 40 minutes. Why bother to go through Munich? Besides, our first inclination was a nonstop flight from Sao Paulo to Frankfurt, which is what I believe happened.
4. I too am confounded by the Rome airport spotting. It has never made any sense unless teams had full flights or to reroute in transit due to weather problems.
5. There are many Lufthansa flights for Dec. 4, INCLUDING LATER IN THE DAY, from Munich to Torino.
6. Have you forgotten Tanzania? Teams would logically head there next after Torino before heading to Asia rather than backtracking to get there.
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Neobie,
You get 20 lashes with a wet noodle for placing your transportation information on this thread:
:lol3:
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1. I agree that one way either Salta to Buenos Aires or Buenos Aires to Salta should be by bus.
2. However, I think it would go the opposite of what you show, with Nov. 28 to Salta by bus and Nov. 29 from Salta by plane
3. You have a number of alternatives to get to Munich from Frankfurt, Paris or Milan by plane. I don't think that's how they did it. The distance from Frankfurt to Fussen is 417 km, with driving time of 4 hours 8 minutes vs. Munich to Fussen 168km and 1 hour 40 minutes. Why bother to go through Munich? Besides, our first inclination was a nonstop flight from Sao Paulo to Frankfurt, which is what I believe happened.
4. I too am confounded by the Rome airport spotting. It has never made any sense unless teams had full flights or to reroute in transit due to weather problems.
5. There are many Lufthansa flights for Dec. 4, INCLUDING LATER IN THE DAY, from Munich to Torino.
6. Have you forgotten Tanzania? Teams would logically head there next after Torino before heading to Asia rather than backtracking to get there.
I'd concede #3 and #5. I find the Germany leg pretty untraditional, though; even if they drove in straight from Frankfurt, they'd be running around in darkness, in a region famous for its natural prettiness (which is evident only in the day). Neuschwanstein Castle isn't even that beautifully lit-up at night. Going to Rome would be a terrible idea. The only logical flight was cancelled and the earliest teams can get into Turin, via Rome, would be at 5.17pm, some 5h after the direct Munich-Turin flight (which leaves after the Munich-Rome flight).
For #2, I think it's more likely that a bus between Salta and Buenos Aires, if there is one, would appear on Leg 2 instead of Leg 1. The bus ride is long (~20h), and the regularly scheduled buses would have all departed by the time they arrived. If there were special overnight charter buses to take teams out of Buenos Aires, they'd arrive in Salta at night. If they left early the next morning, they'd arrive, again, at night. If teams were made to wait around at Buenos Aires for a bus that arrived around dawn, they'd be sitting around for a while. Add that to the delay created by flying through Miami and arriving at Buenos Aires at night, and you've got a very dragged out first leg...
For #6, I was just attracted by the direct flight from Milan to Baku. Flight itineraries do seem easier if we took a Italy > Azerbaijan > Tanzania > Asia route rather than a Italy > Tanzania > Azerbaijan > Asia one, given the limited options out of Baku (but there are Middle Eastern and Central Asian destinations from there). From Nairobi (the airport they used for charter flights in TAR 5) there would be flights straight on towards India, SE Asia, even Hong Kong and Guangzhou.
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There are 46 different combinations to go Nairobi to Baku. Here are the major connecting points (with the ones in London and Moscow and Amsterdam not listed because to me they don't make sense given the other options):
Istanbul
Dubai
Doha
Many first connecting points (DXB, CAI, DAR) leading to IST as the second and final one
Many first connecting points (ADD, KGL, MBA, BAH) leading to Dubai as the second and final one
For those not familiar with some of these DAR is DarEsSalaam, KGL is Kigali and MBA is Mombasa
Now, Neobie has raised the important and valid question of how to leave Baku and I will specify that it should be in an eastward direction. That means China Southern Airlines, which flies to Guangzhou, Beijing, Shanghai and a few other places from Baku. The perfect solution to this problem is via Urumqi at teh western end of Szechuan province. Here are the nonstop flights from Baku to Urumqi (note: they do not fly every day of the way):
GYD URC 0810 1625 on AZAL Airlines
GYD URC 2045 0700+1 China Southern 6024
What a perfect solution, as Urumqi, on many of those ancient trade routes in use in Marco Polo times, has to be a very interesting place! It is also so isolated that it could easily have not been the site of an Amazing Race leg with few outsiders noticing.
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Our Asuncion > Bavaria > Turin route has two problems:
1. The Bavaria leg would have been run at night.
2. Teams don't need to go through Rome to get to Turin.
An Asuncion > Turin route doesn't make sense either:
1. Teams can get into Turin by the afternoon of 3 Dec.
2. Instead they are seen at Rome on the morning of 4 Dec and check in that same evening.
Can we figure out how we can rearrange the schedule so an arrival in Rome on 4 Dec makes sense? Taking some leaps of faith based on Elizabeth's Twitter posts, she was probably on EasyJet from Rome to Geneva, departing at 9.50am.
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Suppose Bavaria comes after?
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Bavaria could come after, but then we still have a half-day gap in the afternoon of 3 Dec.
If teams went straight from Asuncion to Turin they'd be racing on the 3rd, not the 4th.
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Maybe some of it was handled with non-standard length pit stops? Or HOOs?
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Maybe there is more in Ascunsion then??
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nvm
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This note has been an immense frustration to me, as this is the 4th time I have written it. "Warning - while you were reading 3 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post. has zapped me 3 previous times, so beware!
I have a perfectly obvious and logical chain of events to propose to reconcile issues discussed above:
1. Start ASU Dec. 2 PZ712 ASU GRU 2000 2117
2. Connect in GRU Dec. 2 LH507 GRU FRA 2325 1057+1
3. Dec. 3, on arrival Frankfurt airport, teams get marked cars to drive 4 hours to Fussen. With sunset around 1625, tasks will begin at dusk.
4. Dec. 3 tasks INSIDE Neuschwanstein Castle
5. Dec. 4 Teams released from pit stop, drive to Munich airport and get one of these 4 Air Dolimiti flights to Torino:
EN1896 1102 1231
EN1898 1450 1621
EN1900 1707 1850
EN1904 2123 2253
6. After Dec. 4 tasks and pit stop in Torino, teams fly out to Nairobi Dec. 5 or 6
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Apskip's sequence makes the most sense, but we do have a sighting of four teams at Rome airport on the morning of 4 Dec. That's strange if we assume Elizabeth was travelling on EasyJet to Geneva, because that flight leaves at 9.50am and the first flight from Munich gets in at 11.10am.
Asuncion couldn't have been longer, nor an extended Pit Stop in Paraguay, because Docol saw teams leaving. A HoO wouldn't be able to explain the sightings in Rome either, or explain how teams lasted all the way until the evening to check in at Turin.
Unless there was a Leg Four or some crazy delay in S America? If teams miss the 11.30pm flight from Sao Paulo to London on the night of 2 Dec, the next best options will get teams into Rome (en route to Turin) at the right time frame:
AZ 681 from Buenos Aires to Rome 3/1415-4/0710
AZ 673 from Rio de Janeiro to Rome 3/1645-4/0700
AZ 675 from Sao Paulo to Rome 3/1715-4/0715
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I have to go check again, but I was thinking Docol saw Production leaving, not teams, which could certainly be earlier than teams by 12-18 hours.
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Docol saw both the production and the teams. Production was checking in for a 12.05pm flight to Sao Paulo (via Ciudad del Este), but he also saw the teams checking in at 5.23pm at the TAM counter.
There's a 6pm flight to Sao Paulo and a 8pm flight to Montevideo. It'd be kind of weird to have an overnight leg in Uruguay, a short or non-existent Pit Stop, and then a flight to Italy (they'd need to leave Montevideo at 1.25pm), but just leaving the possibility open for now. It's also possible for a leg in Brazil, but again the not having enough time for a Pit Stop problem still holds.
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The question has been asked by Neobie for after Torino whether the next leg is Nairobi (involving no backtracking but considerable north/south movement) or Baku (involving considerable backtracking but maybe less total north/south movement depending primarily on where the following leg is). I cannot answer that question, but what I have done is to look at the optimal flight combinations (there is no nonstop point-to-point between the cities in question). Here are best combinations that I have found (with the caveat that I frequently have trouble reading my own nearly illegible handwriting):
MXP to NBO on maybe Dec. 6. 2011
MS704 MXP CAI 1335 1815 connecting MS049 2015 CAI GYD 0345+1
EK98 MXP DXB 2120 0615+1 connecting EK719 DXB GYD 1045+1 1455+1
TK1894 MXP IST 1115 1535 connecting TK607 IST NBO 1835 0210+1
SV212 MSP JED 1530 2335 connecting KQ331 JED NBO 0030+1 0630+1
NBO to GYD (Baku) on maybe Dec. 8, 2011
TK608 NBO IST 1540 2115 connecting TK336 IST GYD 2330 0810+1
EK723 NBO DXB 2335 0535+1 connecting FZ705 1130+1 1430+1
QR535 NBO DOH 1615 1910 connecting QR974 DOH GYD 0820+1 1235+1
QR533 NBO DOH 2050 2310 connecting QR974 DOH GYD 0820+1 1235+1
MXP GYD on maybe Dec. 6, 2011
TK1878 MXP IST 0845 1350 connecting TK334 IST GYD 1455 1835
TK1894 MXP IST 1115 1535 connecting TK335 IST GYD 2155 0135+1
TK1896 MXP IST 1745 2125 connecting TK333 IST GYD 2330 1410+1
GYD NBO on maybe Dec. 8, 2011
QR975 GYD DOH 1800 1945 connecting QR534 2030 0610+1
TK333 GYD IST 1330 1430 connecting TK607 1835 0210+1
EK256 GYD DXB 1845 2135 connecting KQ3110235+1 0645+1
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Not sure where our three unknown legs lie, but AZAL and Silk Way fly direct from Milan to Baku on Fridays (one flight) and Mondays (three flights). The Turin check-in was the afternoon/evening of a Sunday, so this might be just right for the producers and teams!
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I am going to put the flights to position teams from Asuncion to Sao Paulo into context. Two go nonstop and others involve connections in Buenos Aires, only some of which are feasible. Here are the nonstops:
Dec. 2 ASU GRU PZ716 0405 0712 (note: this flight may be a bit early for teams to make)
ASU GRU PZ712 1810 2117
Here is the feasible connection through Buenos Aires:
Dec. 2 ASU EZE G37470 1205 1355 connecting with JJ8005 EZE GRU 1532 1848
ASU EZE PZ705 1710 1900 has no connection early enough to arrive in time for GRU FRA LH507 departure at 2325.
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An unknown number of teams apparently took the routing through Buenos Aires EZE airport. I wanted to show that there were 3 routes (2 nonstop ASU GRU and one connecting through EZE) potentially available. I believe that some teams that waited for the nonstop and some went to EZE. The EZE bunch were spotted by the Kenya-bound travelers and docol spotted teams in ASU airport just before the departure of the appropriate flight.
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Docol saw at least eight teams at Asuncion airport at 5.23pm, after all flights to Buenos Aires had left. (The last one was at 5.10pm.) Unless there was a non-elimination the first three legs (and if Elimination Station is in Mexico, it's unlikely they wouldn't eliminate people in South America), that means all teams were still in Asuncion after all these flights have left. The only flights available for the racers are:
1800 to Sao Paulo
1800 to Santa Cruz
2000 to Montevideo
The sighting in Buenos Aires could have been teams arriving from the US or them leaving Buenos Aires for Asuncion (in Leg Three). We don't know the date of the sighting yet.
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Neobie,
Who cares that all flights to Buenos Aires had left at 523pm? You have missed my point! Any teams connecting through EZE was long gone at that point to be able to make the connection to GRU. However, the nonstop flight ASU GRU at 6pm remained. Some teams went one way, some went the other and all presumably made it to GRU in time.
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The race started with eleven teams.
There were three legs between the start and Asuncion.
Production presumably wouldn't non-eliminate people in South America if sequester was in Mexico.
Hence, there were probably eight teams left.
Docol saw "at least" eight teams at Asuncion after all flights to Buenos Aires had left.
Hence, no team went to Buenos Aires (at the start of Leg Four).
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Departure from Asuncion to Buenos Aires EZE airport is not the only possibility opportunity for teams to be spotted at EZE. We have these 2 trips:
1. flight Buenos Aires to Salta
2. flight Buenos Aires to Asuncion
It of course depends on which day you pick to look for flights, but irrespective of the date this is true:
1. Flights from Buenos Aires to Salta are from national airport Jorge Newberry (AEP) airport, not international EZE
2. flights from Buenos Aires to Asuncion are split, roughly half from AEP and half from EZE.
Depending on which day the travelers to Kenya spotted teams, it could have been while AR20 teams were waiting to fly to Asuncion from EZE. That would be on or about November 30.
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Or teams could have been seen arriving from Miami on their very first leg (where they'd need to transfer, as you said, to AEP to get to Salta).
Teams were seen racing in Asuncion on the afternoon (even at night) of 1 Dec, and the only flights from AEP to Asuncion are at 9pm and 10.10pm. I believe they departed from EZE, which has an 8.45am and a 2.35pm flight.
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The flight possibilities from Buenos Aires to Salta on Nov. 29 were:
AR2450 0625 0835
4M4110 0902 1015
AR2454 1120 1446
4M4112 1325 1522
4M4134 1710 1935
AR2458 1855 2059
AR2460 2035 2245
OY856 1910 2120
With teams arriving into Buenos Aires from Miami the evening of Nov. 28, I expect that one of the morning departures would have been used. Note that teams would have to transfer (it's about 55km, no short distance) from the EZE airport to the AEP airport.
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I hadn't been aware that Buenos Aires had three passenger airports. Learn something new every day. That 55 km would likely take a while with traffic? (I have to Google Earth this and see where each airport is via-a-vis the city core and each other.) This reminds me of Paris, New York, London, and Moscow which have multiple passenger airports and where not all of them accept international flights.
In looking at B.A. on Google Earth (with the airport overlay), there are three airports; EZE looks to be the one to the southwest of the city core, there's a second airport (which I assume to be "AEP") to the northwest of the city core, and there's a lot of urban development between the two airports; in addition, there is a third airport in the city core on the shoreline. (And on Google Earth if you get close in enough you can see passenger jets on the tarmac.)
Anyhow, I would guess that if the teams arrive in the evening and can't fly out until morning, then the travel time to go between airports shouldn't matter for getting the flights to Salta.
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Now I too had to learn new things in order to add to our bounty of knowledge. That third airport is general-aviation only in San Fernando to the north-northwest but sort of along the coast. The best way to think of it is maybe 5 km beyond (around an inlet) Tigre.
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For some reason, Google Earth didn't show the airport icon for some other airfields/airports around Buenos Aires.
The one closest to Tigre is not the one I was referring to in my last post. I was referring to the one labelled "El Palomar" which is inland and more to the west from the city core than the one near Tigre. (You can also see jets on the tarmac if you go close in on G.E.)
And there does seem to be a large area under construction in the large green space labelled "Campo de Mayo," making me think it might be an airport under construction. Google Earth also has a couple of airport icons in different corners of that area as well.
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el palomar airport is a militar airport in buenos aires !!
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Here is my take on the flights which appear to have been actually used in episode 1:
Nov. 26 LAX MIA
AA276 2323 0648
AA1461 0001 (actually Nov. 27)
Note: others have assumed that all teams went on the earlier flight; I have no proof but it does not make sense to me. The most interesting thing is that there are no scheduled departures after 1410 until the two flights above
Nov. 27 MIA EZE
AR1303 0900 2024
AA1961 1109 2150
Nov. 28 AEP SLA
AR2450 0625 0840 (note that this is up to 1.5 hours before the information others reported earlier)
4M4150 0853 1101
This indicates a 2 hour 21 minute advantage for the first group of 6 teams.
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Confirmation of the BA airport change in this vid:
http://youtu.be/Nn7LkXIfx8Y
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Confirmation of the BA airport change in this vid:
http://youtu.be/Nn7LkXIfx8Y
Peach,
And better yet, months ago I ran a EZE SLA list of flights for Nov. 28 2011. Here is what I found:
No flights were found departing from Ministro Pistarini Airport and arriving in Martin Miguel de Guermes International Airport at the given time period.
If you want to fly from Buenos Aires to Salta, the only reasonable way to do it is from Jorge Newberry airport. There were 9 flights that day AEP SLA
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There is a need for an update to see how teams actually get to Torino from Asuncion. Here it is:
Dec. 2 ASU GRU PZ716 0405 0712 (note: this flight may be a bit early for teams to make)
ASU GRU PZ712 1810 2117
Here is the feasible connection to Buenos Aires:
Dec. 2 ASU EZE G37470 1205 1355 connecting with JJ8005 EZE GRU 1532 1848
ASU EZE PZ705 1710 1900
Connecting in GRU, the options are:
GRU FRA LH507 2000 1057 connecting with LH300 1241 1355
GRU FRA JJ8070 2325 1519
Connecting in EZE, the options are:
EZE MAD LH511 1820 1142 connecting with IB8818 1635 1845
EZE MAD AR1132 2319 1506 connecting with IB8818 1635 1845
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Quick refresher on arrival times in ASU please??
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Flight times from Buenos Aires to Asuncion are surprisingly limited.
From AEP to ASU it's PZ700 2230 2359
From EZE to ASU there are these options, PZ704 0918 around 1100
G37471 1519 1645
But there also were more using a connection through Montevideo taking much longer but fitting in between the two above:
PU366 1149 around 1330 connecting with PU703 1345 1435
That shows about a 3.5 hour advantage for the first 4 teams over the second 5 teams.
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Here is the best flight from Frankfurt to Baku:
Nonstop LH612 1350 2120
The best alternative is to go Munich to Istanbul to Baku:
TK636 1820 2155
TK338 2335 0410+1
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I have been at the front of the belief that the Rome sightings were at best only a few trailing teams. However, I have done a new study which indicates that they may have been the way that all teams made the connections to Torino. The timing for flights from Asuncion to Sao Paulo or Buenos Aires are in posts above. Connecting at either one, here are the potential flights for arrival Dec. 3:
GRU FCO
AZ679 0233 1641 Dec. 3 departure
AZ675 1715 0719+1 Dec. 2 departure
EZE FCO Dec. 3
AZ681 1410 0702+1 Dec. 2 departure
AR1140 2325 1705 +1 Dec. 2 departure
FCO TRN connecting to those flight arrivals on Dec. 3
AZ1413 0935+1 1123+1
AZ1427 1925+1 2030+1
Which was the way that teams made it "across the pond (aka Atlantic Ocean)"? We will see Sunday night. I expect a mix of departure times and connecting cities.
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It's time to put it all together for Asuncion to Torino and see what the implications are for Dewcember 2 flights arriving December 3 in Europe.
First, the only team that can possibly make the 0405 flight out of Asuncion is Art/JJ with my projected release time of 0230, so they will reach Sao Paulo at 0712. However, now they are stuck waiting for the next flight. The Madrid route is useless because the late arrival time from MAD into TRN of 1845 guarantees that teams will not use it unless they have no alternatives. Next, the choice is via Frankfurt or via Rome. Rome is quicker for the following schedule reason:
GRU FRA LH507 2000 1057+1 connecting to LH300 FRA TRN 1241+1 1355+1
GRU FCO AZ675 1715 0713+1 connecting with AZ140 FCO TRN 0935+1 1135+1
The first flight ASU EZE arrives after the only connection which would be superior, so it's out of the running.
For the next 7 teams, I believe they finished before sunset (1927 on December 1 in Asuncion) and would be released sometime after the 0230 that I expect Art/JJ have earned but before 0730. These teams will have to make a choice of Sao Paulo or Buenos Aires and then Madrid, Rome or Frankfurt.
The applicable flights for the first leg are:
ASU GRU PZ712 1810 2117
ASU EZE G37470 1205 1355
The next flight segment is:
GRU FCO 0233+1 1641+1 (Note: this departs after midnight on Dec. 3)
EZE MAD LH511 1820 1142+1
GRU FRA JJ8070 2325 1519+1
The third flight segment is:
FCO TRN AZ1427 1825+1 2036+1
MAD TRN IB8818 1635+1 1845+1
FRA TRN LH304 2120+1 2245+1
The final situation is for Vanessa/Ralph, who I expect to be released after 0725 since they finished in the dark. I think they will catch up at Asuncion airport and the issue will be seats available on the most desirable flight combinations.
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It's time to put it all together for Asuncion to Torino and see what the implications are for Dewcember 2 flights arriving December 3 in Europe.
First, the only team that can possibly make the 0405 flight out of Asuncion is Art/JJ with my projected release time of 0230, so they will reach Sao Paulo at 0712. However, now they are stuck waiting for the next flight. The Madrid route is useless because the late arrival time from MAD into TRN of 1845 guarantees that teams will not use it unless they have no alternatives. Next, the choice is via Frankfurt or via Rome. Rome is quicker for the following schedule reason:
GRU FRA LH507 2000 1057+1 connecting to LH300 FRA TRN 1241+1 1355+1
GRU FCO AZ675 1715 0713+1 connecting with AZ140 FCO TRN 0935+1 1135+1
The first flight ASU EZE arrives after the only connection which would be superior, so it's out of the running.
For the next 7 teams, I believe they finished before sunset (1927 on December 1 in Asuncion) and would be released sometime after the 0230 that I expect Art/JJ have earned but before 0730. These teams will have to make a choice of Sao Paulo or Buenos Aires and then Madrid, Rome or Frankfurt.
The applicable flights for the first leg are:
ASU GRU PZ712 1810 2117
ASU EZE G37470 1205 1355
The next flight segment is:
GRU FCO 0233+1 1641+1 (Note: this departs after midnight on Dec. 3)
EZE MAD LH511 1820 1142+1
GRU FRA JJ8070 2325 1519+1
The third flight segment is:
FCO TRN AZ1427 1825+1 2036+1
MAD TRN IB8818 1635+1 1845+1
FRA TRN LH304 2120+1 2245+1
The final situation is for Vanessa/Ralph, who I expect to be released after 0725 since they finished in the dark. I think they will catch up at Asuncion airport and the issue will be seats available on the most desirable flight combinations.
I think Art and JJ will fly to Buenos Aries first. Because on one of the previews, you can see them talking with Bopper and Mark. And the preview mentions B+M need to get out of Argentina, which would mean Art and JJ are there too. Just my guess.
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I don't know how long the Asuncion pit stop was. If it was longer than I expect (12 hours), then Art & JJ would not make the early flight to GRU. In that case, they would have this option (as would probably all the other teams if space were available):
ASU EZE G37470 1205 1355
EZE FRA LH511 1822 1142+1
FRA TRN LH302 1632+1 1754+1
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It would be nice if we could ID this airport: (click to enlarge)
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb140/ga--peach/TAR%2020/Ep%204%20Turin/Promo%201/th_20-4-promo1-caps0214.jpg) (http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb140/ga--peach/TAR%2020/Ep%204%20Turin/Promo%201/20-4-promo1-caps0214.jpg)(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb140/ga--peach/TAR%2020/Ep%204%20Turin/Promo%201/th_20-4-promo1-caps0239.jpg) (http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb140/ga--peach/TAR%2020/Ep%204%20Turin/Promo%201/20-4-promo1-caps0239.jpg)(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb140/ga--peach/TAR%2020/Ep%204%20Turin/Promo%201/th_20-4-promo1-caps0242.jpg) (http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb140/ga--peach/TAR%2020/Ep%204%20Turin/Promo%201/20-4-promo1-caps0242.jpg)(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb140/ga--peach/TAR%2020/Ep%204%20Turin/Promo%201/th_20-4-promo1-caps0299.jpg) (http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb140/ga--peach/TAR%2020/Ep%204%20Turin/Promo%201/20-4-promo1-caps0299.jpg)
"The Country Boys' mission...get out of Argentina"
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All I can figure is that they took a flight to Buenos Aries or something and missed a close connection :duno:
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Prophet,
If you look at the flight information in my post just above, there is a 4.5 hour layover in Buenos Aires. There is another 5 hour layover in Frankfurt. Those are a by-product of the airline schedules.
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It would be nice if we could ID this airport: (click to enlarge)
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb140/ga--peach/TAR%2020/Ep%204%20Turin/Promo%201/th_20-4-promo1-caps0214.jpg) (http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb140/ga--peach/TAR%2020/Ep%204%20Turin/Promo%201/20-4-promo1-caps0214.jpg)(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb140/ga--peach/TAR%2020/Ep%204%20Turin/Promo%201/th_20-4-promo1-caps0239.jpg) (http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb140/ga--peach/TAR%2020/Ep%204%20Turin/Promo%201/20-4-promo1-caps0239.jpg)(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb140/ga--peach/TAR%2020/Ep%204%20Turin/Promo%201/th_20-4-promo1-caps0242.jpg) (http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb140/ga--peach/TAR%2020/Ep%204%20Turin/Promo%201/20-4-promo1-caps0242.jpg)(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb140/ga--peach/TAR%2020/Ep%204%20Turin/Promo%201/th_20-4-promo1-caps0299.jpg) (http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb140/ga--peach/TAR%2020/Ep%204%20Turin/Promo%201/20-4-promo1-caps0299.jpg)
"The Country Boys' mission...get out of Argentina"
Pretty sure its Ascuncion - just over Marks shoulder you can see the name of a café - Air P.... There is no such named restaurant listed in EZE or GRU. The info is rather limited on ASU, I can't find a good listing of available restaurants there but by process of elimination...
And the "get out of Argentina" quote? Could the CBS web monkeys have confused Paraguay with Argentina?
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Could the CBS web monkeys have confused Paraguay with Argentina?
It wouldn't surprise me! :lol:
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Trying to match those posters. I like the Asuncion idea.
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Coudn't be São Paulo? (Guarulhos or Congonhas)
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I have discovered some fascinating flight time information to round out our knowledge of what actually happened. For all 8 teams it looks to me like these parts of the total went went for the first 2 legs:
Dec. 2 ASU GRU PZ716 0402 0712
Dec. 2 GRU FCO AZ675 1715 0713+1
Then things diverged on the third leg into Torino.
7 teams got Dec. 3 FCO TRN AZ1413 0945 (30 min. late) 1123 (48 min. late)
The interesting thing is what happened to Mark and Bopper as a result of not reading the clue in full detail. They were able to get on PZ716
and AZ675 just as the other teams did, but in Rome they were booked on AZ1429 1030 1150. However, that flight was cancelled, so they had few options. Connecting through Paris to get to Torino had few flight combinations, so it had to be Frankfurt or Munich. The better option was Frankfurt:
LU231 1006 1222 FCO FRA connecting with LH300 1241 1355 FRA TRN
Through Munich it was AZ432 0923 (if they knew about the cancellation early enough) FCO MUC connecting with EN1898 1450 1637 MUC TRN
So it looks like the cancellation cost Mark/Bopper another 2 hours beyond the original delta, which was narrowed to about 30 minutes by the lateness of AZ1413.
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I think Art/JJ finished leg 3 in Asuncion sometime around 230pm on Dec. 1. So, why was the pit stop timing around 26.5 hours, a most unusual number? I believe this was tailored to make sure that Art/JJ could not get the last flight to Sao Paulo at 6pm on Dec. 1. If they had, they would have arrived in Torino by 2135 or 2200 on Dec. 2, about 26 hours ahead of the other teams.
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Askip, I think you are off by one day.
Teams reached the pit stop in Asunción on the afternoon evening of December 1. Then I think they had a 24+h break to start again in the afternoon of the 2nd. They then fly out on the morning the 3rd of December:
PZ 716 ASU-GRU 04:15-07:01
AZ 675 GRU-FCO 17:15-07:31+1
Which puts then in Rome early on the 4th. Then they diverge and the first seven teams take:
AZ1413 FCO-TRN 09:20-10:48
While Mark & Bopper fly:
AZ1429 FCO-TRO 10:20-11:42
The early flight was slightly delayed and the later flight got in ahead of schedule so Mark & Bopper were less than 1h behind upon arrival.
Teams where then observed when they reached Phil in Turin in the afternoon of the the 4th.
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maf:
I am inclined to agree with your correction of the date of departure from Paraguay from Dec. 1 to Dec. 2. It appears from double-checking that the Paraguay leg would have started on the morning of Dec. 1. That means it finished the later afternoon of that day or the evening. With a greater than 24 hour pit stop in Asuncion, based in my opinion of desire of World Race Productions to make sure Art/JJ did not get too far ahead, that puts their departure on the early morning of Dec. 3. All flights you show were as I indicated (although the actual departure and arrival times were actually slightly different) except that Mark/Bopper do not face the cancellation of AZ1429 and can arrive at close to the expected 1150am arrival, only 54 minutes behind the other teams. With my earlier work for the day earlier, the problem that did not make sense was that they would have been 2.5 hours behind and could not have logically gotten within sight of Kerri/Stacy at Museo Nazionale dell'Automobile.
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Where do you find historical flight data?
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Flights look very interesting to Germany, if they fly to Munich, Bavaria, Germany and IF there is a standard 12 hour pit stop.
Sunset in Turin on December 4 (the day of Leg 4 pitstop) was 1648.
From Sunday, we can tell Art & JJ and Dave & Rachel checked in before sunset.
With a 12 hour pit stop they have a chance of getting on December 5 flight
LH1905 TRN-MUC 0645-0825
The flight after that is
LH1895 TRN-MUC 0835-1000
with the chance of Joey & Danny, Vanessa & Ralph, Nary & Jamie, and maybe the others (with the exception of Mark & Bopper) depending on what time they checked in.
The flight after that is
LH1897 TRN-MUC 1305-1445
For sure this is the earliest flight for Mark & Bopper they can make with them checking in well after 10PM.
The flight after that is
LH1899 TRN-MUC 1705-1845
if Mark & Bopper do not make the above flight.
I hope this helps everyone!
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About how to get to Germany from Turin. Could teams perhaps self-drive? Let us say they are released in the morning of the 5th and then drive to Germany where they encounter an HOO so the actual leg takes place on the 6th.
This would cost a day, but teams would be bunched and production could get some wonderful pictures of the teams driving through the alps in winter. And we do see that teams self-drive in Bavaria.
According to Google the driving time from Turin to Neuschwanstein Castle is about 6 hours.
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That is a possibility. The only thing is the teams would have to cross the borders of countries twice (That is Italy -> Switzerland and Switzerland -> Germany). The Amazing Race has had teams cross borders. Season 19 had teams cross Denmark to Germany. The reason why I doubt it is because I do not believe ever in the history of the Amazing Race that teams have driven completely through a country, in this case Switzerland, without a single clue box or task. (If someone can back me up on that, it would be helpful.)
Another thing to throw out there is that it is a 1.5 hour drive, according to Mapquest, from the Munich airport to Neuschwanstien Castle.
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With the time lost going to Turin airport (including ticketing, security, etc.), flying to Munich taking about 100 minutes and a 2 hour drive from Munich to Fussen, I estimate that the total time to fly from a downtown Torino starting point and end up in Fussen would be 6 hours. That assumes that you have such a flight perfectly timed from Torino to Munich. My opinion is that the 6 hour drive would be a MUCH better choice if that is offered.
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Crossing borders shouldn't be an issue within the European Customs Union area, right?
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Crossing borders shouldn't be an issue within the European Customs Union area, right?
No, but the shortest route goes through Switzerland, which is not part of Schengen. So at those borders there will be a passport control and possibly some paperwork due to the cameras etc.
It might be worth it to take the slightly longer (6.5h vs 6h) route over Austria because then the entire trip is within Schengen and there will be no border controls.
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This is very interesting! I still do not believe TAR would have teams drive through an entire country without a clue box or task. Additionally, what would the first clue say?. Drive yourselves to Neuschwanstien Castle, Germany. That would seem very strange.
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maf is quite right that the shortest route goes through both Switzerland (and Liechtenstein too). Here it is as best I can decipher it:
Torino to Varese 92 miles estimated driving time (it's a fast non-mountain road in the Piedmont) 1 hour 39 min.
Varese to Lugano 14 miles estimated driving time 15 min.
There are two alternate routes either one of which is approximately 166 miles and should take about 4 hours:
Lugano to Vaduz, Liechtenstein is the common route for both.
The first branch goes north and across the border to Bregenz, Switzerland and Lindau, Germany. Then it goes north to reach mountain road 12 and then the lower route 7 into Fussen.
The other branch goes through Feldkirch Austria into Sankt Anton am Arlberg, then north to reach route 198, through Reutte and into Fussen.
Total driving time about 6 hours.
Border crossing on trains and planes into and out of Italy, Switzerland and Germany are quick and easy, but I have no cross-border experience in a car.
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I just cannot see it happening, driving through Austria, Switzerland, or Liechtenstein, especially knowing that Season 18 visited all three of these countries.
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The plane possibilities are approximately as given. I want to tailor them to fir the most likely pit stop release times in Torino.
So let's start with Art and JJ. I estimate they would have checked in at 1300 on Dec. 4 and be released Dec. 5 at 0100. They then have 5 hours 40 minutes to get to Torino airport, get tickets to Munich, checkin, kill and board. When they get to Munich, perhaps 15 minutes to get off the plane and out and find marked cars (no doubt FORD FOCUS). That flight EN1705 departed TRN 0640 and arrived MUC 0820. Then 2 hours to drive to Fussen, for a 1020 arrival, 9 hours 20 minutes total.
Next is Rachel and David. They probably checked in around 1500, so their arrival is the same but their total time would be 2 hours shorter than Art and JJ at 7 hours 20 minutes.
The ability of any other teams to get to the Torino airport, ticket, go through security and board EN1705 on time is questionable. Some might have made it and they would have the lowest total time.
All this contrasts with a predictable 6 hours from Torino to Fussen by car, arriving around 0700 for Art and JJ and 0900 for Rachel and David. The unknown is the weather on that day. If driving conditions were below the best required for those mountain roads, then I would have ordered all teams to fly. Maybe they were given the choice, most unusual for the Amazing Race but World Race Productions does try to be unpredictable.
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Since the question of weather in Fussen is slightly researchable (the rest of the driving route above Lugano is really not), I did so. December 5 was one of the warmest days in December, high of 8 degrees Celsius (46 degrees Fahrenheit) and low of -2 degrees Celsius (28 degrees Fahrenheit). It appears that it would have been a fine day for driving.
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The weather along the way as I found it was light rain and mist. You can check out wunderground.com/history to check other locations on weather.
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Does anyone have any clue about trains going from Turin to Frussen on December 5?
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I have another thing to throw out there. Is it possible that if the teams were to drive, that TAR gives teams the street address to Neuschwanstien Castle and have the Ford Focus use the navigation system to guide the teams, to further advertise the Ford Focus, as with the park assist in the last leg?
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I was also wondering if we have ruled out trains...
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I was also wondering if we have ruled out trains...
Not completely, but it seems unlikely. The train takes more than 8 hours, and that is for Munich. I think self-driving is more probable than trains.
Also since Neuschawanstein si such a well known place they could just give teams a picture of it and tell them to drive there.
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There are just so many possibilities. I just have this gut feeling that the teams will not drive themselves there. Who knows, I could be wrong.
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With Ford being involved, it would make sense to force the teams to navigate themselves to Bavaria from Turin. They already have those Fords they drove around Turin.
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We have caps of them driving during the leg...
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With Ford being involved, it would make sense to force the teams to navigate themselves to Bavaria from Turin. They already have those Fords they drove around Turin.
If it is like this , it would mean no equalizer, damn...
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Cougarspy posted this in the Leg 5 spoilers and think it should be transferred here!
Is it possible that the teams take an overnight train from Turin to Fussen, Germany? I was checking out train travel, and you can prebook that trip. This would also act as an equalizer for the teams.
I see that it may have been identified that the Ice Rink is in Fussen (Roadblock - Curling, where teams get their traveling gnome).
Hohenschwangau Castle, Schwangau, Germany is about 12 minutes away, so is the castle a Route Info versus a pitstop? And this is where the snowy labyrinth occurs (walking up to the castle)?
Gemeinde Unterammergau and Oberammergau is a half hour from the castle, as we see teams driving with the gnome.
And the pitstop is near those towns?
Just a thought, since driving from Turin, Italy to Fussen is a 6 hour drive and has multiple TOLLS.
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We have caps of them driving during the leg...
However, the caps with Kerri & Stacy show the Travelocity gnome.
Vanessa & Ralph also have the the gnome coming out of the car.
This leaves Bopper saying, "Yodel-a-hi-hoo," most likely coming after they Yodel (speculated for the speed bump).
We cannot completely rule out a possible flight from Turin to Munich, although I have been outnumbered as the general consensus thinks they drive themselves.
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I don't think there is a consensus yet, just all of us putting forward a lot of ideas!
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The intermodal method of rail+car transportation to get into Bavaria was pretty interesting. The pit stop time was again designed to assure that Art and JJ were not able to get there in time to get through the Gasthaus zum Raffen, with its hours of operation.
Here are the connections for trains to go from Torino to Innsbruck (note: Innsbruck to Ehrwald will be presented when completed and the car distances after that):
3rd train after 7am is 0802am Torino Porta Nuova
0913 at Milano Centrale, leave at 0935a to
Verona Porta Nuova 1057a, leave at 1150a to
Brenner Pass (Italy/Austria border) 1452, leave to
Innsbruck 1502 arrive 1608
Note: Only Art/JJ can be on this train on Monday December 5 since all others have not been released from the pit stop.
Train 2013 12:50PM Torino Porta Nuova,
2:45PM Milano Centrale,
Train9729 3:05PM Milano Centrale,
4:27PM Verona Porta Nuova,
1hr 22min
Brennero188 5:02PM Verona Porta Nuova,
8:32PM
Innsbruck Hbf,
3hr 30min
Note: Rachel/David can be on this train
Le Frecce 9567 1:37PM Torino Porta Nuova,
3:50PM Bologna Centrale,
2hr 13min
Train2264 4:10PM Bologna Centrale,
8:52PM Brennero Brenner,
4hr 42min
Train5233 9:28PM Brenner Pass (Italy/Austria border),
10:08PM Innsbruck Hbf,
0hr 40min
Joey/Danny and Nary/Jamie should be on this train
Le Frecce 9569 2:37PM Torino Porta Nuova,
4:50PM Bologna Centrale,
2hr 13min
Train2266 6:10PM Bologna Centrale,
10:52PM Brenner Pass,
4hr 42min
Train5277 11:04PM
Brenner Pass,
11:44PM Innsbruck Hbf
Note: Only Brendon/Rachel should be on this train.
We still need later trains for Kerri/Stacy and Mark/Bopper.
1550 from Torino Porta Nuova leaving to
Milano Centrale 1745, leaving 1805 to
Verona Porto Nuova 1927, leaving 1950 to Brenner Pass (Italy/Austria border)
2252 leaving Brenner Pass to Innsbruck arrive 2344
This would work for Kerri/Stacy.
1952 Torino Porta Nuova leaving to Milano Centrale
2045 Milano Centrale 2103 Verona Porta Nuova, leaving to
Innsbruck 0101 arrive 0431
This is the one for Mark/Bopper.
leaving
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The train trip from Innsbruck to Ehrwald is about 1 hour 50 minutes. Here are the times:
0638 - 0828 There is apparent reason why all teams except Art/JJ should not have been on this train; all arrived in Innsbruck in time.
0755 - 0942
0757 - 0942
0838 - 1028
1038 - 1228
1045 - 1257
1102 - 1257
1238 - 1428
1255 - 1437
1438 - 1628 I expect Art/JJ made this connection to get to Ehrwald by 1628 but were then stranded at the train station for the night starting Monday Dec. 5.
1725 - 1907
1838 - 2030
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The distances for driving onward from Ehrwald were approximately these:
Ehrwald (last town in Austria) to Oberammergau (first town in Bavaria) 12.9 miles
Oberammergau to Hohenschwangau and Neuschwanstein 27.4 miles
Neuschwanstein to Fussen under 2 miles
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Do we know if they leave from Munich or Frankfurt to Baku?
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TARFANSurvivor,
No, we are not sure which one they fly from, but I have a strong hunch it will be Frankfurt. These are by no means the only flights, but they are the best (from my post 79 on this thread):
Here is the best flight from Frankfurt to Baku:
Nonstop LH612 1350 2120
The best alternative is to go Munich to Istanbul to Baku:
TK636 1820 2155
TK338 2335 0410+1
It is obvious that the nonstop flight is better IF they can get it.
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Here is the best flight from Frankfurt to Baku:
Nonstop LH612 1350 2120
The best alternative is to go Munich to Istanbul to Baku:
TK636 1820 2155
TK338 2335 0410+1
It is obvious that the nonstop flight is better IF they can get it.
Yes, but let's not forget that it is a 4 hour drive to Frankfurt and a 2 hour drive to Münuch.
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Here is the best flight from Frankfurt to Baku:
Nonstop LH612 1350 2120
The best alternative is to go Munich to Istanbul to Baku:
TK636 1820 2155
TK338 2335 0410+1
It is obvious that the nonstop flight is better IF they can get it.
Yes, but let's not forget that it is a 4 hour drive to Frankfurt and a 2 hour drive to Münuch.
Why can't they just take a train to Frankfurt? They could then "showcase" their beautiful HD.
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A quick not regarding the travel to Ehrwald. We see that Art & JJ arrived late in the evening and had to wait until 06:30 before they were allowed to leave.
The next two teams probably managed to catch a late train from Innsbrück to Garmisch-Partenkirchen (REX 5432 at 20:48-21:59) and then spent the night in Gramisch before boarding the first train in the morning RB 5470 06:37-07:01. This matches the footage from their arrival where one can see the station clock showing just after 7.
The last teams got stuck in Innsbrück for the night and took the first morning train, also via Gramish, which arrived at 08:28.
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I have taken a deeper look at the flights from Frankfurt or Munich via Istanbul or Moscow to Baku. My starting assumption is that teams will be bunched reasonably close together, so World Race Productions would have no need to slow down the lead teams with unusual pit stop length. I am estimating teams might have finished leg 5 around 11am to noon and been released from the pit stop between 11pm and midnight. It takes perhaps 4 hours to drive to Frankfurt and perhaps 2 hours to Munich, so what would they find?
Here are the better flights from Frankfurt to Istanbul to Baku:
TK1598 0745 1128 TK334 1500 1945
LH612 1330 2100 nonstop
Here are the better flights from Munich to Istanbul to Baku:
TK1638 0730 1103 TK334 1500 1945
TK1636 1155 1736 TK338 2230 0410+1
Here is a flight from Munich to Moscow-SVO to Baku:
SV2323 1225 1730 SV1852 2335 0025+1
This suggests that unless a team is released after 5am (making the TK1638/TK334 combination untenable) they should go to Munich because that combination is equivalent to TK1598/TK334 from Frankfurt, with less risk from driving half as long.
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apskip, would teams necessarily drive to either? Production could control things by having them take trains (as, IIRC, they have done in past legs in Germany when the next leg was outside of the European Alps.
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the schnauzers,
You are quite right, so I have summarized the most relevant train trips from Fussen to both Frankfurt Airport and to Munich Airport. To Frankfurt is complicated, as there are 2 to 4 separate trains involved. I am not going into the details of that (those that want or need it can find them on German Rail), but here are the relevant trips:
601a - 702a 717a - 840a 851a - 1101a
706a - 857a 936a - 1206p
806a - 914a 938a - 945a 1003a - 106p
905a - 1057a 1103a - 123p 135p 206p
1006a - 1052a 1115a - 1135a 1203p - 306p
To Munich the situation is a bit better, but even there 3 legs (including one for 2 minutes) are required for the 3 hour trip (not 2 hours as previously assumed for driving):
601a - 708a 715a - 808a 819a - 821a 831a- 906a
702a - 857a 905p 955p
806a - 1005a walk 10 minutes to S-bahn 1023a - 1106
905a - 957a 1006a - 1109a
It looks to me that the rail approach will have major waiting time from pit stop release to the first train of the day. If it were a decision up to me, I would take a car despite the fact that I have rented a car once in several decades for travel within Europe, strongly preferring the train trips.
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But as we saw in Leg 5, driving would clearly have been a better choice but TAR still chose trains.
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nvm
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Jimmer25,
It's possible you missed the explanation for that (see below). WRP elected trains so they could drastically cut back the lead of the leading teams with the Hours of Operation in Ehrwald. I suppose they could have done the same with cars, but Art and JJ definitely would have been able to get there ahead of when the HOO took effect
My post #105 in this thread stated that:
"All this contrasts with a predictable 6 hours from Torino to Fussen by car, arriving around 0700 for Art and JJ and 0900 for Rachel and David. The unknown is the weather on that day. If driving conditions were below the best required for those mountain roads, then I would have ordered all teams to fly. Maybe they were given the choice, most unusual for the Amazing Race but World Race Productions does try to be unpredictable.
Modify message."
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I have taken a deeper look at the flights from Frankfurt or Munich via Istanbul or Moscow to Baku. My starting assumption is that teams will be bunched reasonably close together, so World Race Productions would have no need to slow down the lead teams with unusual pit stop length. I am estimating teams might have finished leg 5 around 11am to noon and been released from the pit stop between 11pm and midnight. It takes perhaps 4 hours to drive to Frankfurt and perhaps 2 hours to Munich, so what would they find?
Here are the better flights from Frankfurt to Istanbul to Baku:
TK1598 0745 1128 TK334 1500 1945
LH612 1330 2100 nonstop
Here are the better flights from Munich to Istanbul to Baku:
TK1638 0730 1103 TK334 1500 1945
TK1636 1155 1736 TK338 2230 0410+1
Here is a flight from Munich to Moscow-SVO to Baku:
SV2323 1225 1730 SV1852 2335 0025+1
This suggests that unless a team is released after 5am (making the TK1638/TK334 combination untenable) they should go to Munich because that combination is equivalent to TK1598/TK334 from Frankfurt, with less risk from driving half as long.
In the previews it shows Vanessa/Ralph reading the pit start clue. It does not look like it is 11pm to midnight. How does this new info fit into the transportation estimations?
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littlewop,
If trains are used, you can see that the first one at 601am toward either Frankfurt or Munich should not be impacted unless the pit stop time is longer than 18 hours.
If self-driving is used, then here are the implications:
if Vanessa/Ralph do not get released on or before 2am, they will not make the first flight combination from Frankfurt to Baku.
If they do not get released on or before 4am, they will not make the first flight combination from Munich to Baku.
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Apskip,
A while up, you said that teams checked in between 1100-1200, but Dave and Rachel said they were getting a 12:50 tour for Hohenschwangau Castle, so I think you initial estimates were wrong.
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JImmer25,
You are right and I have to be off by about 2 hours for the later teams. I think Art&JJ will still be before 12 noon.
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I am having some problems with the flight combination cited on this telecast. The connection in Istanbul to TK338 2230 0410+1 was identified earlier. However, the flight from Munich to Istanbul does not have proper connect time:
TK1636 1836 2202
There are no alternatives for either flight that get teams to Baku before daybreak.
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What day are you using?
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I am having some problems with the flight combination cited on this telecast. The connection in Istanbul to TK338 2230 0410+1 was identified earlier. However, the flight from Munich to Istanbul does not have proper connect time:
TK1636 1836 2202
There are no alternatives for either flight that get teams to Baku before daybreak.
Using Dec 7 I get this:
IST Istanbul TK 1636 Turkish Airlines
Scheduled Departure: Scheduled Arrival:
6:20 PM - Wed 07-Dec-2011 9:55 PM - Wed 07-Dec-2011
Actual Departure: Actual Arrival:
6:36 PM - Wed 07-Dec-2011 10:02 PM - Wed 07-Dec-2011
So a tight but not impossible connection for TK 338:
DEPARTURE ARRIVAL
Scheduled Departure: Scheduled Arrival:
11:30 PM - Wed 07-Dec-2011 4:10 AM - Thu 08-Dec-2011
Actual Departure:
11:35 PM - Wed 07-Dec-2011
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Peach you are right. I pulled the wrong number from a table. It should be actual departure of 2335 from Istanbul. However, we agree on the departure from Munich of 1836 arrival Istanbul 2202. This gives ample time for a connection.
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The release time of Art/JJ at 848am is another example of World Race Productions engineering the pit stop time to assure a bunching at Munich airport. I believe this to be a 21 hour pit stop. The effect it had versus a shorter one was to prevent Art/JJ from having the time to drive for 4 hours to Frankfurt for the nonstop flight leaving at 1330. Since the next-earlier flight to the one they ended up on was at 1115 from Munich, they could not even make that. They had to wait at Munich airport as all the other teams arrived.
There is some fascinating reading in the arrival/departure of flight connections through Moscow. Here is a connection through Domodedovo:
Dec. 7 MUC DME 1305 1920 connecting DME GYD J2853 2338 0228+1. None of the other teams could have made this, but Art/JJ certainly had a shot at it.
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The release time of Art/JJ at 848am is another example of World Race Productions engineering the pit stop time to assure a bunching at Munich airport. I believe this to be a 21 hour pit stop. The effect it had versus a shorter one was to prevent Art/JJ from having the time to drive for 4 hours to Frankfurt for the nonstop flight leaving at 1330. Since the next-earlier flight to the one they ended up on was at 1115 from Munich, they could not even make that. They had to wait at Munich airport as all the other teams arrived.
There is some fascinating reading in the arrival/departure of flight connections through Moscow. Here is a connection through Domodedovo:
Dec. 7 MUC DME 1305 1920 connecting DME GYD J2853 2338 0228+1. None of the other teams could have made this, but Art/JJ certainly had a shot at it.
Even if Art and JJ had gotten the earlier flight through Moscow, they still would have been held up by the HOO at the Temple Ateshgah, although I suspect that was arranged by the TAR production staff just to be doubly safe.
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And don't you need a Visa in order to change planes in Moscow? or is that only if you change airports?
I think production just told them they had to use Munich.
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Do we know anything about flight possibilities from Baku to Tanzania????
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It is all around here somewhere. Since we have the sighting in Nairobi we know they went thru there, but we do NOT know if that is heading in or heading out.
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Post #59 states:
GYD NBO on maybe Dec. 8, 2011
QR975 GYD DOH 1800 1945 connecting QR534 2030 0610+1
TK333 GYD IST 1330 1430 connecting TK607 1835 0210+1
EK256 GYD DXB 1845 2135 connecting KQ3110235+1 0645+1
There are dozens more possibilities, but these are the best. There are no other international airports except Kilimanjaro anywhere in the area. I believe that flights into the area of Kenya/Tanzania and out of it will both be via Nairobi. I am going to hypothesize the options.
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There are two major airports in Kerala, the state that is the southwestern edge of India, Kochi (formerly Cochin) and Trivandrum serving Thiruvananthapuram.
Here are the flight combinations connecting through Mumbai to get from Nairobi to either one of those departing Dec. 10 or Dec. 11:
12/10 NBO BOM KQ202 1755 0156+1 connecting to 12/11 BOM COK 9W2111 0535 0717
12/11 NBO BOM KQ202 1835 0308+1 connecting to 12/12 BOM COK 9W2111 0535 0722
12/10 NBO BOM KQ202 1755 0156+1 connecting to 12/11 BOM TRV AI667 0653 0928
12/11 NBO BOM KQ202 1835 0308+1 connecting to 12/12 BOM TRV AI667 0653 0858
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I have also considered the possible departure of teams from Kilimanjaro Airport (code JRO) as a back end or front end to Nairobi. there are no good connections to south India better than through Nairobi. Here are the flight possibilities:
Dec. 10 JRO NBO PW727 1530 1625
Dec. 11 JRO NBO PW727 1530 1645
JRO NBO 5H458 1413 1500
For the Dec. 8 flights shown above, here is the one connecting flight from NBO to JRO that makes sense:
PW724 0800+1 0900+1
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It is all around here somewhere. Since we have the sighting in Nairobi we know they went thru there, but we do NOT know if that is heading in or heading out.
Actually, since the airport meltdown is being shown in the promos, I think we can assume this is on the way TO Tanzania, right? ???
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Something to keep in mind: Leg 7 of TAR 5: Teams flew into Narobi from Luxor in Egypt, and then flew a charter flight to Kilimanjaro and then a bus to their first route marker on the leg.
There's nothing ruling out a similar option this time around from what has been included in previews, promos and CBS press releases; and the one sighting at the Narobi airport.
Given the problems the show has had in other years with scheduled passenger flights in Africa, the charter option shouldn't be ignored.
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Quote from: theschnauzers on Yesterday at 04:43:09 PM
Something to keep in mind: Leg 7 of TAR 5: Teams flew into Narobi from Luxor in Egypt, and then flew a charter flight to Kilimanjaro and then a bus to their first route marker on the leg.
There's nothing ruling out a similar option this time around from what has been included in previews, promos and CBS press releases; and the one sighting at the Narobi airport.
Given the problems the show has had in other years with scheduled passenger flights in Africa, the charter option shouldn't be ignored.
theschnauzers,
The opening words of leg 7, AR5 in "My Ox is Broken" are "Receiving $75, teams return to Cairo and from there take the fastest available flight to Nairobi, Kenya, where a charter to a "mystery destination" is waiting.
Some proof the the above is that on normal flights Charla/Mirna and Linda/Karen tried to take alternate connecting flights which proved unsuccessful and left Charla/Mirna fighting for last place and this episode.
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I entered the below information once already, but it vanished.
This is about flights from either Kilimanjaro or Nairobi to either major Kerala cities Kochi (formerly Cochin) and Trivandum (airport for Trivanarandum) starting on 12/10/2011 and also on 12/11/2011. Here are the flights:
Dec. 10 JRO NBO PW727 1530 1625
NBO BOM KQ202 1735 0156+1
BOM COK 9W2111 0535+1 0717+1
Dec. 11 JRO NBO 9W727 1530 1645 or 5H458 1413 1500
NBO BOM KQ202 1835 0308+1
BOM COK 9W2111 0535+1 0722+1
Dec. 10 JRO NBO PW727 1530 1625
NBO BOM KQ202 1735 0156+1
BOM TRV AI667 0653+1 0858+1
Dec. 11 JRO NBO PW727 1530 1625
NBO BOM KQ202 1735 0156+1
BOM TRV AI667 0653+1 0928+1
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TARFANSurvivor,
Of course Peach is right. There is no need to do this again, since post #59 has what you ask for. Here are the 3 most probable flight possibilities (although there are dozens of low probability alternatives):
GYD NBO on maybe Dec. 8, 2011
QR975 GYD DOH 1800 1945 connecting QR534 2030 0610+1
TK333 GYD IST 1330 1430 connecting TK607 1835 0210+1
EK256 GYD DXB 1845 2135 connecting KQ3110235+1 0645+1
Here is something new, a connection on to Kilimanjaro airport in Arusha Tanzania:
Dec. 9 NBO JRO PW724 0800 0900
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TARFANSurvivor,
Of course Peach is right. There is no need to do this again, since post #59 has what you ask for. Here are the 3 most probable flight possibilities (although there are dozens of low probability alternatives):
GYD NBO on maybe Dec. 8, 2011
QR975 GYD DOH 1800 1945 connecting QR534 2030 0610+1
TK333 GYD IST 1330 1430 connecting TK607 1835 0210+1
EK256 GYD DXB 1845 2135 connecting KQ3110235+1 0645+1
Here is something new, a connection on to Kilimanjaro airport in Arusha Tanzania:
Dec. 9 NBO JRO PW724 0800 0900
Thanks! So Baku connection Istanbul connection Nairobie and then Arusha????
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I guess I should have been clearer. Flights from Nairobi to Kilimanjaro (Arusha) or Kilimanjaro to Nairobi are all speculation. They may or may not happen. It is not a huge distance from Nairobi to Arusha, specifically 144 miles so buses or cars could easily be the source of transportation in either direction. What is clear based on schedules is that from outside Africa, flights will come in to Nairobi and from Africa to India the cross-Indian Ocean leg will be a flight from Nairobi.
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I guess I should have been clearer. Flights from Nairobi to Kilimanjaro (Arusha) or Kilimanjaro to Nairobi are all speculation. They may or may not happen. It is not a huge distance from Nairobi to Arusha, specifically 144 miles so buses or cars could easily be the source of transportation in either direction. What is clear based on schedules is that from outside Africa, flights will come in to Nairobi and from Africa to India the cross-Indian Ocean leg will be a flight from Nairobi.
Thanks!!!!
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If they are flying from Nairobi to Kerala, South India, then they could just as well fly into Calicut International Airport in Karipur, Kerala as either Kochi or Trivandrum. Kozhikode (formerly Calicut) is known as the city of spices and is a textile center. It has many arrival flights from all over the Middle East, Kuwait, Oman, Saudia Arabia and all the emirates. Seems the Arabs like to hire the people of S India for their worker bees. It also has domestic connections to Mumbai and Delhi if they go somewhere else first in India. As far as exiting South India…..I think they would have to leave by either Kochi or Trivandrum. Both those airports have connections to either Kuala Lumpur or Singapore and both those airports have connections direct to Osaka.
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What day did teams check into Baku? Is it December 8?
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If they are flying from Nairobi to Kerala, South India, then they could just as well fly into Calicut International Airport in Karipur, Kerala as either Kochi or Trivandrum. Kozhikode (formerly Calicut) is known as the city of spices and is a textile center. It has many arrival flights from all over the Middle East, Kuwait, Oman, Saudia Arabia and all the emirates. Seems the Arabs like to hire the people of S India for their worker bees. It also has domestic connections to Mumbai and Delhi if they go somewhere else first in India. As far as exiting South India…..I think they would have to leave by either Kochi or Trivandrum. Both those airports have connections to either Kuala Lumpur or Singapore and both those airports have connections direct to Osaka.
Dr. Rox,
The use of Kozhikode airport is possible, but unlikely. The reason is only one flight per day in from Mumbai and one flight per day out to Mumbai. The population in the metropolitan areas of Kochi, Thiruvananthapuram and Kozhikode is all at 2 million or slightly less. Thiruvananthapuram has the largest city population, followed by Kochi and by Kozhikode. So, bottom line, the probability of using either Thiruvananthapuram or Kochi for at least one leg is my conclusion.
It is only 113 miles from Thiruvananthapuram to Kochi and vice-versa, so that makes the possibility of 2 Kerala legs in those two cities reasonable. It would be possible to take the AR20 to Bangalore or Chennai or Goa or Mumbai or Delhi, but I don't think world Race Productions has done that. Kochi is next to Ernakulam, a major rail center for southern India.
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I want to look ahead to leg 11 transportation where teams will have to fly from probably either Kochi or Trivandrum airports to Kansai Airprot in Osaka. It will take a minimum of 2 connections and nearly 24 hours to make the shortest possible trip. I have looked at routes through Chennai and through Mumbai and I strongly prefer those connecting in Mumbai. I have also looked at a second connection in Kuala Lumpur, Bangkok and Hong Kong, which I believe have the best possibilities for decent schedules. It turns out that the optimal second flight is Mumbai to Bangkok and the third is Bangkok to Osaka. Here are the specifics:
16 Dec. TRV BOM AI668 0938 1134
or COK BOM AI682 0720 0905 or COK BOM 9W2112 0850 1043
16 Dec. BOM BKK 9W68 1315 1847
16 Dec. BKK KIX TG622 2324 0636+1
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Here is one other, probably unlikely option. The teams could fly to Tokyo, which has a lot more connections, and then travel by train to Osaka or Kyoto. The bullet trains are super fast (it only takes a few hours).
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Paldog,
Although that is a good idea in theory (only one air connection in Mumbai is needed to NH944 BOM NRT), the actual timing of that flight makes it unlikely (as you have stated alternative). Any flight from TRV or COK into Bombay will do, but NH922 timing is 2118 0825+1. Add at least 4 hours for disembarking and taking fast trains to Osaka. You have to have a morning flight from TRV or COK to get the optimal result, as most Amazing Race legs start between midnight and noon.
I do have a flight alternative to what you propose, but it suffers from the same drawback. Here it is (second connection is in Seoul):
COK BOM G8452 1918 2103
BOM ICN KE656 0300+1 1415
ICN KIX KE725 1520+1 1740+1
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Here is one other, probably unlikely option. The teams could fly to Tokyo, which has a lot more connections, and then travel by train to Osaka or Kyoto. The bullet trains are super fast (it only takes a few hours).
Yes i hope it is true the Racers taken trains in Japan!!!! :yess: :yess: :yess: :yess:
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In the latest preview from CBS - I can see that the teams are at the Kenya airways transfer desk in Nairobi around 6:35 (there are 2 wall clocks visible).
Of course I can't tell if its AM or PM.
What does that tell us about flights?
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walkingpneumonia,
Precisely what I would expect from this post above:
GYD NBO on maybe Dec. 8, 2011
QR975 GYD DOH 1800 1945 connecting QR534 2030 0610+1
or
EK256 GYD DXB 1845 2135 connecting KQ3110235+1 0645+1
Note: I have excluded the flight combination arriving at 0210+1.
From NBO, teams could take a car, take a bus or fly to get to Arusha about 120 miles away.
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They Fly. In the new promo they are transiting in Nairobi...
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Here is something new, a connection on to Kilimanjaro airport in Arusha Tanzania:
Dec. 9 NBO JRO PW724 0800 0900
This flight works for me - its a code share with Kenya Airways (6724 ) so it would make sense that the teams are at the Kenya Airways transfer desk.
There are some later flights if teams don't make the first one:
JRO Kilimanjaro PW 724 Precision Air Services 08:00 AT7
JRO Kilimanjaro 5H 451 Fly540 08:15 BE1
JRO Kilimanjaro PW 722 Precision Air Services 10:45 AT7
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I am trying to reconcile the information presented in this telecast to real-time flight information for Dec. 8, 2012. Previous information assumed Dec. 7 but if you count out the days of the race that cannot be true. I cannot quite get the first one to match but it's only a half hour off and has no impact on when teams reach Nairobi.
From Baku there are two flights to Istanbul possible (note - I also checked Dubai, Doha, Muscat and Cairo but none had any flights):
TK337 0800 0915
J2 75 1000 1038
Both streams of teams meet up and got on the same Dec. 8 flight from Istanbul to Nairobi:
TK607 1843 0223+1
So then they wait around for about 5.5 hours for the first Precision Air flight to Arusha, PW724 0800+1 0900+1.
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I am trying to reconcile the information presented in this telecast to real-time flight information for Dec. 8, 2012. Previous information assumed Dec. 7 but if you count out the days of the race that cannot be true. I cannot quite get the first one to match but it's only a half hour off and has no impact on when teams reach Nairobi.
From Baku there are two flights to Istanbul possible (note - I also checked Dubai, Doha, Muscat and Cairo but none had any flights):
TK337 0800 0915
J2 75 1000 1038
Both streams of teams meet up and got on the same Dec. 8 flight from Istanbul to Nairobi:
TK607 1843 0223+1
So then they wait around for about 5.5 hours for the first Precision Air flight to Arusha, PW724 0800+1 0900+1.
The flight you have teams on from Nairobi to Kilimanjaro International, PW724, is a daylight flight. How do you reconcile that with the episode when teams land at Kilimanjaor in the dark, take a taxi from there to the Arusha airport, sign in for charter flights from Arusha to Ngorogoro, still in the dark. Then they have an HoO waiting for charter flights at 930, 945, 1000?
There is/was no 830 departure to anywhere from Baku on Dec 8. If you noticed the travel agent computer screens, TPTB had them all fogged up so we couldnt see. I think they were trying to fool up. I think a much more likely itinerary was:
GYD to DXB J2 11 1005-12:39 pm
DXB to NBO EK721 305 pm to 715 pm
NBO to JRO PW728 1000 pm to 1100 pm
This fits more into what was seen on the televised episode.
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I expect that teams will be leaving on December 12 after an extended pit stop in between the 2 Tanzania legs. Here are logical flight connections to go from Kilimanjaro Airport to Nairobi to Mumbai to Trivandrum:
JRO NBO PW723 0600 0655 or PW721 0915 0935 or 5H452 1415 1500
connecting to:
NBO BOM KQ202 1730 0406+1
connecting to:
BOM COK 9W2111 0535+1 0738+1 or SG131 0830 1015 or a number of later flights
In order to reach the first flight out of Kilimanjaro International Airport, teams will probably have to take a taxi for 100 miles (just like AR5)
from the Kibaone area on the west side overlooking Lake Manyara. That will have to be done early enough to reach JRO by about 8am or 1pm, depending on which flight is possible. It [probably rules out the 6am flight for teams.
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There are a lot of trains on the Eranakulam (either the in-city station or the suburban Junction station) to Trivandrum Central station. Here are the ones that ran on Wednesday Dec. 14, 2011:
0055 0515
1725 2055
0755 1250
1050 1540
0625 1120
0945 1435
0255 0725
2125 0125
2252 0335
1625 2210
0500 0940
1257 1750
0550 1005
0130 0605
1415 1840
0002 0505
0440 1015
1010 1505
0235 0715
1620 2110
0345 0910
1330 1830
1350 1855
So that's 23 separate trains running at the average length of about 4.5 hours.
Bus will be an option for this 130 mile trip, but Indian National Railways will have the edge.
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I thought I would run find available schedules on buses Kochi to Thivurananthapuram. However, almost all the potential websites provide train schedules only. Although there is bus service, they won't reveal schedules. The only one I discovered was this:
depart Thrissur 2110
arrive Kochi unidentified (but since it's 40 miles and late evening it should arrive soon after 2200)
arrive Alappuzha unidentified
arrive Kollam unidentified
arrive Thiruvananthapuram 0310+1
The road distance Kochi to Thiruvanananthapuram is only 177 km (108 miles).
There is an alternate report that the distance is 205 to 225km (sources vary) and buses take 5 hours, which is what is shown above. It appears that buses move about as slowly as trains do in Kerala.
The India Rail Ministry has approved, but it will be a long time before high speed rail is available in this corridor. when that happens and the first phase of this proposed project is completed travel between Kochi and Thiruvananthapuram will be reduced to 45 minutes.
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KOCHI to OSAKA FLIGHTS on Dec. 16, 2011
COK BOM AI682 0720 0905 or 9W2112 0850 1143
16 Dec. BOM BKK 9W68 1315 1847
16 Dec. BKK KIX TG622 2324 0636+1
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I have reconsidered which route and flights the first 4 teams took. The arrival 45 minutes before 605am bothered me but I had to work extra hard to come up with a route and actual flight departures/arrivals that were closer. Here is what I believe they did through Muscat:
Dec. 12 PW486 JRO DAR 0740 0900
Dec. 12 WY716 DAR MCT 1645 2310 2323
Dec. 13 WY201 MCT COK 0150+1 0645+1
The problem with this is what I expect Vanessa/Ralph did:
Dec. 12 JRO NBO PW723 0600 0635
Dec. 12 NBO DOH QR539 1359 1856
Dec. 12 9W555 DOH COK 2320 0605+1
I think that the other teams actually connected through somewhere in the Middle East to get to Doha in time for the same 9W555 because teams appeared to arrive at the same time in Kochi. This would not be possible if they connected through Dubai (earlier arrival) or through Muscat (later arrival) or Mumbai (quite a bit later arrival).
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Dec 9. Pit Stop for Leg 7 at Ngorogoro Crater Simba Camp @ around noon and ~18 pit stop till sunup on Dec 10.
Dec 10 Start Leg 8 @ Ngorogoro Crater tour and finish Leg in Mto Wa Mbu the same day. I see no evidence of an extended pit stop for sightseeing. The sightseeing was covered in the Ngorogoro Crater tour. I believe the length of the pit stops were determined by filming in HD during the daytime. So pit stop at the Simba camp was around 18 hours and the pit stop after Lake Manyaro pit stop was 26-28 hours to give teams time to book flights to India
After re-watching the start of Episode 9 multiple times, I have an alternate theory on how teams got from the orchard pit stop in Mto Wa Mbu, Tanzania to Cochin, India.
Bopper/Mark finished Leg 8 very close to midday Dec 10. When B/M and R/D approach the mat, there is almost no shadow. When Ralph/Vanessa and Nary/Jamie arrive, the shadows are very pronounced/elongated, late afternoon Dec 10. I believe that teams were transported to Arusha from Mto Wa Mbu in daylight on Dec 10. The Pit Start on Leg 9 was in darkness on evening of Dec 11, in a fairly well lighted town. The taxis were parked near a curb. What I am attempting to say, is that the Pit Stop Release for Leg 9 was not in Mto Wa Mbu, but in Arusha on the evening of Dec 11. Plus if you look at the special credits posted by Slowhatch here http://forum.realityfanforum.com/index.php/topic,26988.100.html
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l573/drrox1/indexphpactiondlattachtopic26988.jpg)
You will see that the Mt. Meru Hotel was listed in the credits. It is in Arusha and is an 8 story luxury hotel. The décor of the hotel rooms match the room that the doctor examines Bopper’s knee in. So I think that the pit release for Bopper/Mark was at 9:06 pm on Dec11, 2011 in Arusha. With the other teams following. They are directed to go to Rickshaw Travel (also in Arusha) to get tickets for flights to Cochin, India. Seems like another example where Production got a local travel agent to remain open after hours. The first four teams all book the same itinerary, through Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, arriving in Cochin @ 6:05 am on Dec 13. They will fly out of Kilimanjaro International at 7:40 am on Dec 12. When Ralph/Vanessa arrive at the travel agency, all the other teams have left…either to the airport or back to the hotel. It is about 30 miles from Arusha to Kilimanjaro International. Ralph/Vanessa actually get on the 6:00 am flight to Nairobi. From the short conversation, it appeared that some seats had just opened up, according to the travel agent. One would think that if seats were available earlier, the other teams would have booked them. Reminds me of the finale flights in TAR5 in a way. Last team in to the airport, got the first flights out.
So leaving JRO on Dec 12, 2011
Ralph/Vanessa:
1) PW723 6:00 am - 7:00 am JRO>NBO (Kilimanjaro-Nairobi)
2) EK720 4:35 pm - 10:22 pm NBO>DXB (Nairobi-Dubai)
3) IX434 11:55 pm - 5:20+1 am DXB>COK (Dubai-Cochin)
Other 4 teams JRO-COK
1) PW435 7:40 am - 9:00 am JRO>DAR (Kilimanjaro>Dar es Salaam)
2) QR535 11:55 am - 7:10pm DAR>DOH (Dar es Salaam>Doha)
3) 9W555 11:20 pm-6:05+1 am DOH>COK (Doha>Cochin)
The arrivals in Cochin are pretty close to what was shown in the episode, with R/V already in the terminal, looking for bus schedules, when the other 4 teams arrive.
I just cannot see that any team flew through Mumbai, since the first Mumbai-Cochin flight didn’t arrive till 7:25 am, by which time all teams were gone from the Cochin airport.
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Dr. Rox,
I congratulate you on good detective work getting teams to Arusha but it hardly matters given that they started at 906pm to 131am whether they started in Mto Wa Mbu or in Arusha.
On your assertion that the teams in DarEsSalaam flew from DAR to Doha, here is some information that devastates your assertion:
QR 535 Qatar Airways 13:59 18:56 This is for a flight from Nairobi to Doha. The only flight from DAR to DOH was QR545 1756 2332. On arrival, they were too late to connect to 9W555, which was the flight clearly taken by Vanessa and Ralph.
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apskip,
You certainly have the right to believe what you wish. Personally, I like to believe in the facts.
(QR) Qatar Airways 535
(DAR) Dar Es Salaam, TZ to (NBO) Nairobi, KE
Status: Landed - On-time
Scheduled Departure: 11:55 AM - Tue 13-Dec-2011
Actual Departure:11:38 AM - Tue 13-Dec-2011
Scheduled Arrival: 1:15 PM - Tue 13-Dec-2011
Actual Arrival:12:56 PM - Tue 13-Dec-2011
(QR) Qatar Airways 535
(NBO) Nairobi, KE to (DOH) Doha, QA
Status: Landed - On-time
Scheduled Departure: 2:15 PM - Tue 13-Dec-2011
Actual Departure: 1:59 PM - Tue 13-Dec-2011
Scheduled Arrival: 7:10 PM - Tue 13-Dec-2011
Actual Arrival:7:13 PM - Tue 13-Dec-2011
Tis a pity you didn't just research the flight number instead of just the route......you would have found what I orginally posted above. Oh well
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It turns out that you were correct, but what a travesty of travel agent work. Instead of sending those 4 teams and their crews from JRO to NBO, a simple and straightforward task, the travel agents must have sent them on the initiation of QR535 DAR NBO 1141 1258 before they went NBO DOH on the schedule indicated for Vanessa and Ralph on the schedule above. A few travel agents ought to be shot for not sending the 4 teams and crew directly to Nairobi instead of routing them through DarEsSalaam to get there.
Vanessa and Ralph clearly had much better travel agent support and got on QR535 in Nairobi. All teams apparently traveled together to Doha and Kochi.
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apskip,
You certainly have the right to believe what you wish. Personally, I like to believe in the facts.
(QR) Qatar Airways 535
(DAR) Dar Es Salaam, TZ to (NBO) Nairobi, KE
Status: Landed - On-time
Scheduled Departure: 11:55 AM - Tue 13-Dec-2011
Actual Departure:11:38 AM - Tue 13-Dec-2011
Scheduled Arrival: 1:15 PM - Tue 13-Dec-2011
Actual Arrival:12:56 PM - Tue 13-Dec-2011
(QR) Qatar Airways 535
(NBO) Nairobi, KE to (DOH) Doha, QA
Status: Landed - On-time
Scheduled Departure: 2:15 PM - Tue 13-Dec-2011
Actual Departure: 1:59 PM - Tue 13-Dec-2011
Scheduled Arrival: 7:10 PM - Tue 13-Dec-2011
Actual Arrival:7:13 PM - Tue 13-Dec-2011
Tis a pity you didn't just research the flight number instead of just the route......you would have found what I orginally posted above. Oh well
Hi Roxy! :waves: Always a pleasure!
Don't you mean December 12th? :duno:
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Chateau,
You know that I the greatest respect for your work. However, this time you have laid an egg. I will not speak for Dr. Rox (he would not tolerate that anyway), but I can speak for myself and all the string of dates in this thread. Apparently, you have played Rip can Winkle while that was happening. You have to look at this from both ends and either way the conclusion that you are not one but TWO days behind is probable.
We know for a fact that Dec. 4 evening was the pit stop start time in Torino.
The evening of Dec. 5 was spend in transit by all teams and the Fussen pit stop started Dec. 6 afternoon.
Teams were released Dec. 7 am and headed for Baku. They reached there but did not have a leg until the morning of Dec. 8.
The next pit stop started the afternoon of Dec. 8.
Teams were released Dec. 9 am and it took until the following morning for teams to reach Ngrongoro Crater.
I have an extended pit stop (probably an extra 24 hours) while they were in Ngorongoro). You may not have assumed that but they have to have them.
That puts the start of leg 7 on Dec. 11, with a pit stop overnight in Mto Wa Mbu or Arusha (it really doesn't matter for date purposes).
Team fly to India and arrive Dec. 13 am, then do leg 9.
With an assumption of no extended pit stop in India teams start leg 10 Dec. 14 am (two days before you have it) and depart for Japan on
Dec. 15. If there is an extended pit stop in Kochi, then that departure would be Dec. 16.
They will arrive Dec. 16 (no India extended pit stop) or Dec. 17 (an Indian extended pit stop) and do leg 11, then enter another extended pit stop.
That takes us to either Dec. 18 or Dec. 19 departure from Osaka and the cross-the-International-Date-Line-west-to-east so they arrive same day.
Another way to look at this is top go backwards from the final tasks for the F3, which is know to be on Dec. 18. Go back across the International Date Line, which subtracts one day and it's Dec. 17. Take an extended pit stop in Japan and it's Dec. 16 starting that leg. Go back from Japan to India and it's Dec. 15, which is when teams leave India. The beginning of leg 10 will therefore by Dec. 14.
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This has nothing to do with transportation, but the final day of filming was Monday, Dec 19, 2011.
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TAR Fanatic,
You could be right. Go examine the analyses I have placed earlier in this thread and also in the Ep. 10 thread. It may have been Dec. 18 and it may have been Dec. 19. The difference is determined by whether there was an extended pit stop in Kochi.
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TAR Fanatic,
You could be right. Go examine the analyses I have placed earlier in this thread and also in the Ep. 10 thread. It may have been Dec. 18 and it may have been Dec. 19. The difference is determined by whether there was an extended pit stop in Kochi.
I'm not basing this on any analysis. We had twitter sightings and pictures taken in Hawaii on Dec 19. The pictures of the teams rappelling were taken Dec 19. I think they were also in Japan on the 19th and crossed the International Date Line.
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100% Dec 19.
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Here is the optimal (according to me) route for Kochi to Osaka on Dec. 17:
COK BOM AI682 0800 1015 or 9W2112 0850 1037
17 Dec. BOM BKK 9W68 1315 1921
17 Dec. BKK KIX TG622 2322 0632+1
This will take (based on the scheduled departure time from Kochi for AI682 of 0630 and not the actual shown above) 20.5 hours in transit.
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Teams were definitely NOT racing in Osaka on Dec 17.
Per Ryan's blog and pictures, he definitively says he saw the teams on Monday Dec 19, which of course raises the possibility of Osaka being a TBC leg.
http://nippwnd.blogspot.com/2011/12/1219-amazing-osaka.html
Caper's blog find says they saw the race on Day 2 of their trip, which is Dec 19 as well.
http://jjcsb.blogspot.com/2011_12_01_archive.html
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Teams were definitely NOT racing in Osaka on Dec 17.
Per Ryan's blog and pictures, he definitively says he saw the teams on Monday Dec 19, which of course raises the possibility of Osaka being a TBC leg.
http://nippwnd.blogspot.com/2011/12/1219-amazing-osaka.html
Caper's blog find says they saw the race on Day 2 of their trip, which is Dec 19 as well.
http://jjcsb.blogspot.com/2011_12_01_archive.html
Peach,
What does 0632+1 mean? It means that the arrival time was the morning of Dec. 18!
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But they were racing on the 19th, not the 18th....
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I saved this on Dec 19, arr times from Osaka to Honolulu
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb140/ga--peach/TAR%2020/TAR%2020%20Finale/locations%20caps/e29db7be.jpg)
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Arrival in time in Osaka 632am Dec. 18 assuming flight lands there (Note: I have to look at potential implications of Hiroshima)
Leg 11 in Japan finishes morning of Dec. 18
Maybe an extended pit stop in Osaka of at least 24 hours but less than 36 hours
Leg. 12 starts with trip to some airport probably Osaka's Kansai) no later than evening of Dec. 19
Flight possibilities (assuming it was from Osaka and not from Narita to arrive earlier):
DL278 2038 0831 (not +1 due to International Date Line crossing west to east)
HA450 2116 0932
JL78 2120 0915
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Leg 11 in Japan finishes morning of Dec. 18
Maybe an extended pit stop in Osaka of at least 24 hours but less than 36 hours
Once more. The leg in Osaka was run on DEC 19. TWO eyewitnesses confirm. Pit stop will be short therefore...
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Don't forget this: From the intro caps
the JR Shin-Osaka Railway Station, Osaka Japan (with Shinkansen)
(http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x449/kikisak/TAR/t2017.png)
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Chateau,
I don't know how to fit that in except for transport to Narita Airport to get an earlier flight. The other possibility is a train trip to Hiroshima so that the picture of the airport bus tagged by somebody as being only from Hiroshima Airport is valid.
Just a simple bus trip from Kansai airport into downtown Osaka costs 1900 yen and runs every 20 to 30 minutes except between midnight and 630am.
The distance from Osaka to Hiroshima is 175 miles each way, so 350 miles would be burned by using trains or buses or combinations for that.
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I'm just going to wait and see if my suggestion some months ago that teams might use airports in western Japan (Hiroshima, Osaka, etc.) pans out after being castigated about suggesting this then.
The logic of it was always that such use of those airports would limit the flights teams could take and to manipulate the teams' arrival so Phil could get ahead of them for both the Japan leg and for the final leg in Hawaii. It wouldn't surprise me if Phil was able to leave for Osaka the afternoon or evening of the day of check-in of the second Kochi leg.
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THE SCHNAUZERS,
I was one of those who displayed a low-probability attitude toward your "western Japan and Hiroshima" hypothesis. It can be done, but it's not pretty.
The best flight combination leaves Kochi in the evening and arrives in Hiroshima (HIJ) at just under 21 hours elapsed time, slightly more than my Kochi to Osaka combination. Here are the flights:
MU2734 COK MAA 1950 2125
MH182 MAA KUL 0001+1 0610+1
PW388 KUL PVG 0920+1 1417+1
However, how many Amazing Race teams board flights immediately after their pit stop at 8pm?
I have other combinations, but all appear to be at least 24 hours in total transit time.
I don't see flying into Hiroshima, but it's definitely not impossible.
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Flying to Hiroshima appears more probable now. I would not do a round-trip on the bullet train from Osaka to Hiroshima and back UNLESS there were bad flight connections into Hiroshima. the one above is OK except for leaving in the evening. I have another here that also leaves in the evening but gets there 4 hours elapsed time quicker than any of the best Cochin to Osaka flights I have found:
COK SIN SQ267 2345 0742+1
SIN ICN SQ16 0932+1 1647+1
ICN HIJ OZ162 1836+1 1958+1
However, due to the evening departures, I believe that the flight combination starting in Cochin will be the one actually used because it departs and arrives in the morning and the one above does neither and earlier one in my prior post in this thread depart in the evening.
I would like to give kudos to jacobsk68 who hypothesized that Singapore would be a connection on the route. That will be true if teams fly this route through Singapore and Seoul to get to Hiroshima.
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If one concludes that teams are likely to get from Shin-Osaka to Hiroshima by bullet train, then the Japan National Railways schedule is rather useful. Most bullet train trips on that route take slightly less than 90 minutes. Here are some representative ones throughout the day:
Dep. Shin-Osaka Arr. Hiroshima
1009 1133
1029 1155
1059 1233
1209 1338
1218 1342
1245 1401
1501 1638
1522 1654
1545 1705
There are others for earlier, later and in between these times.
I have to admit that the photo of the Hiroshima airport bus is troubling because that does not fit the model I have gravitated to.
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Flying to Hiroshima appears more probable now. I would not do a round-trip on the bullet train from Osaka to Hiroshima and back UNLESS there were bad flight connections into Hiroshima. the one above is OK except for leaving in the evening. I have another here that also leaves in the evening but gets there 4 hours elapsed time quicker than any of the best Cochin to Osaka flights I have found:
COK SIN SQ267 2345 0742+1
SIN ICN SQ16 0932+1 1647+1
ICN HIJ OZ162 1836+1 1958+1
However, due to the evening departures, I believe that the flight combination starting in Cochin will be the one actually used because it departs and arrives in the morning and the one above does neither and earlier one in my prior post in this thread depart in the evening.
I would like to give kudos to jacobsk68 who hypothesized that Singapore would be a connection on the route. That will be true if teams fly this route through Singapore and Seoul to get to Hiroshima.
Thanks apskip. The reason for suggesting Singapore is that it's the airport to the east of India that has the most connections to the far East and India. Dubai(followed by Doha) is the the closest with most connections to the west. Since you are also suggesting that most probably it will be the connecting Airport.
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Good thinking jacobsk68.......terrific job on the Kerala legs. I think someone else suggested connections through Singapore about a month ago............oh yeah.......
If they are flying from Nairobi to Kerala, South India, then they could just as well fly into Calicut International Airport in Karipur, Kerala as either Kochi or Trivandrum. Kozhikode (formerly Calicut) is known as the city of spices and is a textile center. It has many arrival flights from all over the Middle East, Kuwait, Oman, Saudia Arabia and all the emirates. Seems the Arabs like to hire the people of S India for their worker bees. It also has domestic connections to Mumbai and Delhi if they go somewhere else first in India. As far as exiting South India…..I think they would have to leave by either Kochi or Trivandrum. Both those airports have connections to either Kuala Lumpur or Singapore and both those airports have connections direct to Osaka.
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The possible destination of Hiroshim is intriguing. Kochi to Sinapore certainly fits for this destination. Hiroshima International Airport only has arrivals from 4-5 cities to the west of Japan. Taipei, Shanghai, Inchon and Dalian. There are very reasonalbe connections from Singapore to Shanghai, Inchon and Taipe. From those three cites are flights to Hiroshima all arriving within 10 minutes of each other around 8 pm at night. There are flights from Narita and Haneda in Toyko all day long, but last one is around 9 pm at night.
Why would Production get the teams to Hiroshima so early the night before the Leg in Osaka on the morning of the 19th? Well, might the Game Show Roadblock take place in the middle of the night in Hiroshima? Since it is indoors, it won't make any difference in the filming in HD.
The Bullet trains shut down at midnight till 6 am........so no travel to Osaka till at least 6 am. Then what about the ferry ride to Miyajima Island? It appears to be a long ferry ride to the island from Hiroshima, but unless they are required to make the same reverse itinerary, from Miyajima Island to Miyajimaguchi Train Station is only a ten minute ferry ride. The bullet trains do not stop there, but a local train to Hiroshima Station to catch the Bullet train to Shin Osaka would get them to Osaka by around 8 am at the earliest to do the Detour and find the Pit Stop..........
Maybe they just send them to Hiroshima to waste time and make sure they cannot arrive in Osaka till early on the 19th to do all the tasks. Maybe there is a HoO on the island and a group camp out, similiar to Baku?
Anyway........just some thoughts........time to watch for more clues.
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Good thinking jacobsk68.......terrific job on the Kerala legs. I think someone else suggested connections through Singapore about a month ago............oh yeah.......
If they are flying from Nairobi to Kerala, South India, then they could just as well fly into Calicut International Airport in Karipur, Kerala as either Kochi or Trivandrum. Kozhikode (formerly Calicut) is known as the city of spices and is a textile center. It has many arrival flights from all over the Middle East, Kuwait, Oman, Saudia Arabia and all the emirates. Seems the Arabs like to hire the people of S India for their worker bees. It also has domestic connections to Mumbai and Delhi if they go somewhere else first in India. As far as exiting South India…..I think they would have to leave by either Kochi or Trivandrum. Both those airports have connections to either Kuala Lumpur or Singapore and both those airports have connections direct to Osaka.
thanks DrRox. Never thought they will do two full legs in my home state of Kerala. TAR may not return to Kerala for along time, next time it will some other part of India.
Good to know that you also mentioned about Singapore as a connection airport.
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Welll teams flew Kochi>Singapore>Shanghai> Hiroshima.......landing at 8:10 pm on Dec 18, 2011. The flight to Hawaii was interesting. Teams were on the 2nd of 3 possible non-stop flights (Hawaiian Airlines) from Osaka to Honolulu.......I would highly suspect that Phil, Bertram and crew were on the first flight (Delta).......that landed one hour earlier. That gave Phil a very good head start on doing his standups.
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I am going to comment separately on the two major points Dr. Rox has made. First, that the reason teams were on the second flight is that Phil and the WRP staff were on the earliest one. I say that Phil and WRP staff were about 24 hours ahead of the F3 in departing from Osaka. There were these flights:
DL278 2057
HA450 2104
JL78 2124
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My second comment is on Dr. Rox's assertion that teams flew Kochi to Singapore to Shanghai to Hiroshima. I agree with the first 2 legs but say that it difficult to tell about the third leg. To get the schedule we are seeing (departure Dec. 16 on SQ467 COK SIN at 2345 0742+1), there is a choice of Shanghai versus Seoul as the next connecting point. My opinion (at this point it is only that) is that Seoul was the connection. that means that the flights were SIN ICN SQ16 0932+1 1647+1 to ICN HIJ OZ162 1836+1 1958+1. This arrived essentially at 8pm.
The combination one can infer from Dr. Rox's proposal starts with SIN PVG and that can be on any of several flights leaving from 9am until 1039am. That is where the inconclusiveness starts. Normally flight information is available on when flights depart and arrive. however, for that date and flight MU293 the listing if for departure at 1746+1 and arrival at 1548+1. Hmm, that's quite a bit impossible, particularly since Hiroshima is in a time zone one hour ahead of Shanghai. The normal scheduled time of arrival is 810pm, which is the only piece of data lending credence to Dr. Rox's hypothesis. Maybe he's right and teams flew through Shanghai, maybe he's not. It cannot be determined without further evidence.
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I am going to comment separately on the two major points Dr. Rox has made. First, that the reason teams were on the second flight is that Phil and the WRP staff were on the earliest one. I say that Phil and WRP staff were about 24 hours ahead of the F3 in departing from Osaka. There were these flights:
DL278 2057
HA450 2104
JL78 2124
Just so I make sure I understand what you are saying, apskip, are you saying that Phil and WRP crew left Osaka on the evening of Dec 18th and NOT the evening of Dec 19th as I believe to be the case? I am taking about the calendar date in Japanese time, btw, not Hawaiian time.
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I am going to comment separately on the two major points Dr. Rox has made. First, that the reason teams were on the second flight is that Phil and the WRP staff were on the earliest one. I say that Phil and WRP staff were about 24 hours ahead of the F3 in departing from Osaka. There were these flights:
DL278 2057
HA450 2104
JL78 2124
Just so I make sure I understand what you are saying, apskip, are you saying that Phil and WRP crew left Osaka on the evening of Dec 18th and NOT the evening of Dec 19th as I believe to be the case? I am taking about the calendar date in Japanese time, btw, not Hawaiian time.
All my dates as reported in this thread are in local time. What point would it be to translate that to US East Coast or Central time?
I believe that the flights from Japan left Osaka around 9pm Japanese time on Dec. 19 and arrived in Honolulu on either side of Dec. 19 Honolulu time. This is of course possible because Japan time is UTC+9 AND Honolulu time is UTC-10. The total difference of 19 hours gives flights ample time to "arrive" before they "departed". Another way of saying this is that when you cross the International Date Line eastward you push your clock back one day.
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I am going to comment separately on the two major points Dr. Rox has made. First, that the reason teams were on the second flight is that Phil and the WRP staff were on the earliest one. I say that Phil and WRP staff were about 24 hours ahead of the F3 in departing from Osaka. There were these flights:
DL278 2057
HA450 2104
JL78 2124
Just so I make sure I understand what you are saying, apskip, are you saying that Phil and WRP crew left Osaka on the evening of Dec 18th and NOT the evening of Dec 19th as I believe to be the case? I am taking about the calendar date in Japanese time, btw, not Hawaiian time.
All my dates as reported in this thread are in local time. What point would it be to translate that to US East Coast or Central time?
I believe that the flights from Japan left Osaka around 9pm Japanese time on Dec. 19 and arrived in Honolulu on either side of Dec. 19 Honolulu time. This is of course possible because Japan time is UTC+9 AND Honolulu time is UTC-10. The total difference of 19 hours gives flights ample time to "arrive" before they "departed". Another way of saying this is that when you cross the International Date Line eastward you push your clock back one day.
I am really sorry to be a pain, but exactly just who flew to Hawaii on the evening of Dec 19. Was it the teams or was it Phil and the WRP crew? If you mean that the teams flew on the 19th........then you must mean that Phil and the WRP crew flew on the 18th......per your 24 hours lead time statement above? None of your flight schedules have departure dates in them so it is very hard to understand just exactly what you mean.
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apskip........
Here is your Kochi>Hiroshima itinerary, but there is no date to this schedule. What day do you propose it occuring?
Flying to Hiroshima appears more probable now. I would not do a round-trip on the bullet train from Osaka to Hiroshima and back UNLESS there were bad flight connections into Hiroshima. the one above is OK except for leaving in the evening. I have another here that also leaves in the evening but gets there 4 hours elapsed time quicker than any of the best Cochin to Osaka flights I have found:
COK SIN SQ267 2345 0742+1
SIN ICN SQ16 0932+1 1647+1
ICN HIJ OZ162 1836+1 1958+1
However, due to the evening departures, I believe that the flight combination starting in Cochin will be the one actually used because it departs and arrives in the morning and the one above does neither and earlier one in my prior post in this thread depart in the evening.
I would like to give kudos to jacobsk68 who hypothesized that Singapore would be a connection on the route. That will be true if teams fly this route through Singapore and Seoul to get to Hiroshima.
Here is your Osaka>Honolulu itinerary.....again there is no date mentioned........
I am going to comment separately on the two major points Dr. Rox has made. First, that the reason teams were on the second flight is that Phil and the WRP staff were on the earliest one. I say that Phil and WRP staff were about 24 hours ahead of the F3 in departing from Osaka. There were these flights:
DL278 2057
HA450 2104
JL78 2124
So what are the departure dates for these two flight itinerairies? That is if you dont mind posting them?
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Let me remind you that I have essentially volunteered to do the work normally part of the
The Amazing Race 20 » Timeline & Spoiler Summary.
I previously in this thread carefully tracked the dates through the departure in India, which would have been Dec. 16 (actually Dec. 15 at 2345 for the first flight of the combination to Hiroshima) or Dec. 17 (actually Dec. 16 at 2345). The difference is an extended pit stop in the Kochi area. I believe this happened, so the departure Dec. 16 at 2345 relates to that.
Going forward, arrival would be the evening of Dec. 17 in Hiroshima and arrival Osaka the afternoon of Dec. 17. With an extended pit stop, I see teams as heading for KIX early afternoon Dec. 19. The flights are the evening of Dec. 19 and arrivals in Honolulu the morning of Dec. 19. That's my timeline.
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The Pitstop time in Osaka was TWO hours. :)
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I'm in the midst of rewatching the finale from the I Tunes download, and there are quite a few time cues in the first part of the Hiroshima-Osaka leg that help point to the flights taken by the final four teams.
First, we're told about Rachel-Dave's release time in Cochi, 1:51 pm. Since teams in India have to purchase their tickets from a travel agency (this goes back to TAR 1, remember) before they arrive at the airport that should help narrow down when the teams left. It should also provide information as to when Phil and his camera crew left Cochi because of the daylight for Phil's stand ups in Japan (He had none in Hiroshima and his first one was the game show in Osaka). The travel agent for Rachel-Dave quite clearly says that their arrival in Hiroshima would be at 8:10 the next evening, and that it was the fastest flight available.
We don't get any help from the Amazing Red Line on the Bing globe, but we get some clues as to the arrival time based on the fact that teams had to buy tickets to take a shuttle bus to the train station to get to the island, and had to buy tickets at the train station (several edits tell us 10:20 was the next departure, and then a 21:55 (9:55 pm) time on a digital clock in the train station.) Then we also have the time of the last ferry departure that evening and the first departure the next morning; we ought to be able to work backwards from this to see if just one flight fits all of this together. (I personally suspect it does; and it should be possible to get an estimate of the time it takes the shuttle bus to get to the train station.) I'm basing this on what had to be done in other seasons at times to reconstruct timeline elements, but I think it likely it'll be possible to do it.
(I'm not going to rub it in over the teams flying into Japan at Hiroshima or Osaka...it made sense to me for them to do so this time, once we knew about the Osaka pit stop, since the show has a pattern in recent seasons to pick airline flights that have very few or only one option for the teams, and to manipulate the pit stop releases to force those options while giving production a head start to the next destination. It avoids a lot of bunch in mid-leg and artificial HOO.)
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The Pitstop time in Osaka was TWO hours. :)
OK, Peach, I don't often question what you say and this is not one of those times. I do ask that you identify where in the timeline kept up by me in this thread the extra day happens (to replace the one that a 2 hour pitstop frees up). The only way that 2 hour pitstop and departure from Osaka on Dec. 19 in the evening can be reconciled is in Kochi with a much longer extended pitstop so that departure from there is actually 2345 on Dec. 17, arrival in Hiroshima is Dec. 18 around 8pm and the pitstop in Osaka starts late afternoon of Dec. 19. Is that your understanding of what happened?
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Thanks for posting the dates, apskip. Aren't we all volunteers here?
From eyewitness accounts, the Osaka Pit Stop started for R/D about 2 pm on Dec 19th. From the episode, it ended for R/D about 4:15pm on Dec 19.
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How long was the flight from Osaka to Honolulu supposed to take? I noticed Art/JJ saying they had a 12 hour flight and were going to get some sleep, but that doesn't add up. The HA 450 flight (by the sign they show) departs at 2115 which would be 0215 in Hawaii. Given from bspencer's pics D/R were at the towers at 1013, this points to a ~7hour flight.
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No idea, apskip.
I am under the impression that the longest PitStop this season was about 16 hours, but :duno:
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bcp19, I haven't gotten to that part of replaying the episode yet, but as I recall the teams were told they were booked on flights that arrived early in the daytime of the 19th (Hawaii time) my mind is saying after 6 am (6:30?, 6:50?) but there's always the possibility that teams went to an unaired route marker that was edited out of Phil's recitation of the pit stop release clue, and we have no idea one way or the other. However, if the teams had known before they arrived in Hawaii what they had to find, then we wouldn't likely have had teams asking their taxi driver if they knew what the place was that was described in the clue, and the teams likely would have had an address or a place name that would have gotten them there directly.
This season has been like an early season where a timeline had to be constructed after the season finished airing, and there were willing Racers to help reconstruct the timeline details.
I'm not surprised by the info Peach mentioned about the longest pitstop not having been more than 16 hours this season. I think teams had to have spent a lot of time this season in airport layovers (unaired) in order for the show to get teams into and out of South America, Africa, and India much less to Japan, and for many of these areas, there really weren't direct flights at all. And given the total time for filming.
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How long was the flight from Osaka to Honolulu supposed to take? I noticed Art/JJ saying they had a 12 hour flight and were going to get some sleep, but that doesn't add up. The HA 450 flight (by the sign they show) departs at 2115 which would be 0215 in Hawaii. Given from bspencer's pics D/R were at the towers at 1013, this points to a ~7hour flight.
You are pretty close, bcp19. It is scheduled as a 7 hour 45 minute flight. It was about a 7.5 hour flight for Dec. 19.
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Info from 12/19:
HA 450 Flight Information Route: From (KIX) Osaka, JP to (HNL) Honolulu, HI, US
Duration: 7h 16m
Scheduled Departure: Scheduled Arrival:
9:15 PM - Mon 19-Dec-2011 9:35 AM - Mon 19-Dec-2011
Actual Departure: Actual Arrival:
9:16 PM - Mon 19-Dec-2011 9:32 AM - Mon 19-Dec-2011
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I think a nice summary of all actual flight information for AR20 is warranted. Here it is:
Nov. 26 LAX MIA
AA276 2323 0648+1
or AA1804 0001 (actually Nov. 27) 0734+1
Nov. 27 MIA EZE
AR1303 0900 2024
or AA1961 1109 2150
Nov. 28 AEP SLA
AR2450 0625 0840
or 4M4150 0853 1101
leg 1 tasks leading from Salta to finish in Cafayete
Nov. 29 start leg 2 in Cafayete, 18 hour bus to Buenos Aires
Dec. 30 leg 2 tasks in Buenos Aires
Dec. 1 fly B.A. to ASU PU366 1149 1230 to Montevideo, PU705 MVD ASU 1345 1435, leg 3 tasks in Asuncion
Dec. 2 pit stop releases in the evening
Dec. 3 ASU GRU PZ716 0415 0701
GRU FCO AZ675 1715 0731+1 connecting with AZ1413 FCO TRN 0920+1 1048+1 (note-Mark/Bopper on AZ1429 1020+1 1142+1)
Dec. 4 Torino leg
Dec. 5 TRN to Ehrwald, Austria by train departures vary; all arrivals by morning of Dec. 6
Dec. 6 Fussen leg
Dec. 7 Fussen to MUC, MUC IST TK1636 1836 2202, IST GYD TK338 2335 0410+1
Dec. 8 Baku leg
Dec. 9 GYD IST J275 1000 1048, IST NBO TK607 1835 0135+1, NBO JRO PW724 0800+1 0900+1, charter flights to Ngrongoro Crater leave at 0930, 0945, 1000 with 2 teams each
Dec.10 Ngrongoro Crater leg
Dec. 11 Extended Pit stop (total is more than 24 hours)
Dec. 12 second Tanzania leg
Dec. 13 Vanessa/Ralph JRO NBO PW723 0600 0700 or PW721 0915 1015 NBO DOH QR535 1359 1915 DOH COK 9W555 2320 0605+1
Other teams JRO DAR PW435 0900 DAR NBO QR535 1138 1256 NBO DOH QR535 1359 1913 DOH COK 9W555 2320 0605+1
Dec. 14 Kochi area leg 9
Dec. 15 Extended pit stop
Dec. 16 Kochi area leg 10
Dec. 17 COK SIN MU467 2345 0645+1 SIN ICN SQ16 0932+1 1633+1 ICN HIJ OZ162 1839+1 2004+1
Or COK SIN MU467 2345 0645+1 SIN PVG SQ828 0736+1 1246+1 (or 2 later flights) PVG HIJ MU293 1748+1 2010+1 scheduled, actual unknown
Dec. 19 Hiroshima/Osaka leg
Dec. 19 minimal pit stop
Dec. 19 HA450 2116 0932
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Thanks apskip!