The Amazing Race > The Amazing Race Discussion
Ranking the Teams -- A basis for comparing all teams (TAR 1 - 33)
DavidJunior:
--- Quote from: mswood on February 24, 2010, 12:54:56 PM ---The thing with these is one we need to all (myself included) remember that the requirements for being a strong team are different each season.
Things like remembering when judging seasons 1-4 that teams with great placement averages had to deal with the possibility of another team getting in first not to superior racing but due to their being a fast forward available in all but the final leg. One could certainly argue that that really handicaps teams from season 1-4. Then you have the fact that seasons 1-5 allowed one racer to do (though not all teams did some very much split their tasks and responsibilities during the race) which makes it difficult to compare seasons 6-16 to earlier races. Then you have seasons 13 and up that for the most part have removed what was one of the biggest factors of the race and that is the ability to drive and navigate long distance through various countries. Then you have things like the Yield or U-Turn where you can deliberately impede the progress of your fellow racers (something seasons 1-4 didn't have). Then you have your competitors, and let me say that no season has across the board strong racers, each has usually have 4 - 5 teams that simple suck. And I think its actually gotten worse. Look at seasons 13-15. Those seasons have the most penalties, teams that get eliminated through their own carelessness, and choices that just boggle the mind.
David Junior on some of your points.
If season 5 had to require the women to do half the tasks, I think it would have ended close to the same. Christie seemed the most driven of the women (in couples), their were no strong male teams at all (so no worries about that), in fact I think it a lot about that seasons that teams like Kami & Karli (who over all just sucked as racers), Charla & Mirna (who managed some flights well, but also had huge problems), and Linda and Karen (who had drive god bless them, but my god they weren't good racers) lasted so late in the race.
Nick & Starr didn't face strong competition from many teams. This was a season that is often considered the idiots seasons. Toni & Dallas (I loved them) killed themselves, Ken & Tina (a good team), Terence & Sarah (Sorry but they weren't that good, probably due to their inability to work well together), Then you had the idiot Frats (one of the most incompetent teams the race has ever had).
Then you had Meghan & Cheyne and lets face it, we have a season were three teams literally take themselves out of the race (Mika & Canaan, Zev & Justin, The Globetrotters), another team taken out due to the inability to perform either RB (and one of them shouldn't have been that hard), a father/son team that was never that competitive. That leaves you with Sam & Dan (who were good, but erratic and their ability to work together under pressure was a huge flaw), and Brian & Ericka who truly only made it due to two other teams self destructing (similar to what happen in getting the Frats in the final three of season 13).
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although you are very right in the fact that in both Seasons 13 and 15, a majority of the teams ENDED with egg on their faces.
the fact that they had better all around races is what I'm looking at.
Season 13: Yes, 3/6 of the F6 teams can easily be considered blundering idiots, but they still raced pretty darn well.
Kelly and Christie - although they were one of the worst teams of all time in reading clues, they were strong, passionate, and in certain cases smart. They were only eliminated because Kenny/Tina decided to help the weaker Frat Boy team first. (which is a very good race strategy)>
Terence and Sarah - had some communication issues throughout the race, but also had all top 4 finishes (only 1 was 4th), until they went for the FF and landed 5th, which unfortunately for them was last and elimination.
Toni and Dallas - the only mistake Toni ever made was letting Dallas do that last Roadblock, and his mistake was being careless and leaving his fanny pack behind. They were the only other team outside of Ken/Tina to beat Nick/Starr for a 1st place finish that season, as well.
Andrew and Dan - took the term bumbling idiots to a new level. But, they did make a steady, consistent climb up the rankings. And they flourished in their "under the radar", "back of the pack" positioning. Although they got some amazing luck in the last half of the race, you definitely need some competitive drive to start off near last every leg and still survive to the end.
Ken and Tina - Perceived as the biggest competition for Nick and Starr. And it definitely showed in their general finishing order.
Yes, the F6 teams basically gave Nick and Starr a free pass to the finish line, but not before giving them some decent competition before tripping all over themselves.
Season 15:
Zev and Justin - had it not been for the Passport blunder, they would've easily have made the F3, and probably would've given Meghan/Cheyne a run for their money.
Maria and Tiffany - an extremely lucky team, who I will proclaim to this day, did not deserve to make it past the first leg. And I felt they went out in proper fashion.
Gary and Matt - although not the most driven and competitive team, they still were able to keep up with the "big boys" almost all the way to the end, and had they been a bit better with directions (and candelabras :lol:), team "lucky" wouldn't have been so lucky. And they were pretty decent competition through the first 2/3 of the race.
Flight Time and Big Easy - although I will be one of the first to admit that Big Easy is one of, if not the, biggest idiot in race history for quitting that simple Roadblock. But, up until that point, they were BY FAR M/C's biggest competition.
Brian and Ericka - they were very very very lucky throughout the race. Not the strongest, not the fastest, not the brightest, but they had the grit and determination to keep plugging away each leg. And they always seemed to pull it out in the end. And, they probably would've won had it not been for the untimely judging blunder. Guess their luck ran out right at the end.
Sam and Dan - Bicker, bicker, whine, whine! That's all they ever did. But, they were super competitive, strong, quick, and not too dull. They also, were sneaky and shifty when they needed to be, which is something I feel a good team should have. Though I HATED them on their season, you can't deny that they were a good team. (look how many "bickering" couples made it really far in other seasons)
Meghan and Cheyne - although they basically dominated their season, they still had to face some stiff competition throughout, they were just fortunate that, like Nick/Starr, their strongest competition unraveled near the end of the race.
Season 5:
Charla and Mirna - as you have said many a time, the only thing that they were good at was finding flights. Honestly, if it wasn't for that fact, they probably wouldn't nearly as far as they did. And on top of that, they went out because of a mistake they made on the thing they were supposedly so good at.
Kami and Karli - if you looked for "dumb blond" in the dictionary, a picture of them would show up. The only thing that propelled them so far was their fitness and speed.
Linda and Karen - though they had the drive and the spirit, they weren't really that good of a team. They were spared 7th due to Marshall/Lance injury. And continued on mainly due to C/M flight problems, and Kami and Karli kicking the suck up a couple notches.
Brandon and Nicole - never really seemed like a factor throughout the race. They were sorta just there. And I feel this team would've been out earlier had Nicole actually done something.
Chip and Kim - Another team that didn't stand out too much for me, outside of (from what I remember) the show basically trying to cram them down our throats. And again, had Kim actually done more than 1 Roadblock, they might not have fared AS well as they did.
Then you had 2 overweight brothers in 7th, a really old dating couple in 8th, another old guy and his daughter in 9th, and then two teams that- at least on paper- should've survived at least the first 3 to 5 legs coming in 10th and 11th respectively.
Colin and Christie basically had this race in the bag from Day 1, at least until their car blew a flat on the last leg.... (terrible luck if you ask me)
for me at least, M/C and N/S had to work throughout their season to make it to the end (which they did with ease), and win. They were just fortunate in that some of their biggest competition kept shooting themselves in the foot along the way.
all Colin and Christie had to do was wait at the top whilst all the sucky teams fell off the pace, to cruise into the finals and win the million. and they couldn't even pull that off.
Colin and Christie - strong? No doubt about it. The strongest team on the race ever? I doubt it.
Nick and Starr - strongest team ever? eh, i felt there were stronger teams than them, but probably would've done just as well in S5
Meghan and Cheyne - I don't think they fit the label as strongest team ever either. But, they too would've dominated in S5 as well
believe me, I don't think S13 and S15 were even close to the most competitive season ever, by any stretch of the imagination. But, S5 doesn't pop up in my mind as a race that was full of competition and super strong teams either.
almightyblue:
--- Quote from: mswood on February 24, 2010, 12:01:01 AM ---I have to seriously disagree about Charla & Mirna. They raced incredibly poorly (especially in season 11). Sure they made the final three but many teams that underperform make the final three.
When you break down the episodes and figure out the time to complete the days events Charla & Mirna were consistently one of the slowest teams.
They have two saving graces, that was the ability (on occasion to get help from locals, other times not at all as they can be very abrasive) and the ability to get themselves either good flights or bumped over others on those flights.
They are poor navigators, poor drivers, and didn't perform great on many tasks.
There is just no real evidence when either just taking simply things like Pit Stop Placement, taking time to complete the days tasks, ect that Charla & Mirna are even close to Eric & Danielle. And Eric & Jeremy were a much, much stronger team then Eric & Danielle it's not even close according to the racers themselves.
Now I thank they had more to overcome and that many people like them, but the facts as presented on the show (again those can be in error, but its what we have to work with) don't present them as a strong team. Except of course in arranging flights (in which they do seem to have very strong skills both in research and persuasion.
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Basically, you're dismissing Charla & Mirna's strengths. Yes, I agree they were never good on Physical tasks, but they made up for that with their travel skills and their ability to get help from the locals. Against a decently strong team they're dead meat, but they have they ability to constantly beat above average opponents.
And yes, I will admit they ran horribly on the first four legs, but they got much better very quickly, and ran better than Eric & Danielle from that point out. Yeah, E&D did better on the tasks, but Charla & Mirna killed them in every other aspect of the race, all of which are just as important as doing the actual tasks. As for Eric & Danielle's "strength", I'll get to that in a moment...
--- Quote from: J-Squeeze on February 24, 2010, 12:47:04 AM ---I agree with mswood. Eric & Danielle may very well have been that season's strongest team (or tied with Dustin & Kandice and Rob & Amber), not counting their truly awful luck. This is why placement is not always a good indicator of racing skill. But what other truly objective measurement do we have?
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No, just no. They weren't even close to the same level as Rob & Amber and Dustin & Kandice, and this has to be the first time I've seen anyone ever suggest as much. A strong team doesn't finish over 12 hours behind the lead team, twice. A strong team doesn't need the most contrived equalizer in Amazing Race history to catch up to the lead teams. A strong team doesn't make three critical airport mistakes that should have gotten them eliminated, mistakes such as:
On leg 6, Eric & Danielle get the idea to go up to the airline office instead of waiting for the ticket counter to open up. Great, only they tell all the other teams their idea, leading to everyone but Bill & Joe and Teri & Ian following them upstairs. Not so great. Then, they don't make sure to get themselves at the top of the standby list, allowing all the other teams to jump them on said list, leading to them eventually getting pulled off the plane.
In leg 7, they stumble upon Danny & Oswald and Charla & Mirna in a travel agency, but instead of sticking around to leech information off of these two teams who have been working at booking a flight for hours, one of whom was the best in TAR history at finding faster flights than everyone else, they decide to leave and look on their own. They make one futile attempt at finding a flight, then give up and take the default one, allowing Dustin & Kandice to lap them.
On leg 10, they miss out on standby tickets on the first flight, so instead of going right to the next counter to secure tickets on the second flight, tickets they had a standby reservation for, they go to exchange money, allowing Charla & Mirna to scoop the tickets right out from under them. Again, not the mark of a great team.
almightyblue:
--- Quote from: Coutzy on February 24, 2010, 02:02:10 AM ---I'd like to know the basis for Season 5's field being considered so strong.
Yes, Colin and Christie finished in the top 2 a then-record number of times in a row. But who else did that season have?
Marshall and Lance, who's placements were all over the place until they quit (Note that they may have performed much better had the injury not occured, but we can only speculate)
Charla and Mirna, who argued and fought their way across 4 continents before coming to their end in Africa. They never really wowed me with any of their legs.
Kami and Karli- Enough said :res:
Linda and Karen- Another team that never really wowed me. They finished either mid-table or towards the back in every leg bar 3. (In fact, apart from these legs, their best finish was 6th in a leg of 9.) They weren't that great, and probably wouldn't be so memorable without Karen's amazing effort on THAT Roadblock.
Brandon and Nicole- They wound up with a handful of good results, and were in the middle so much that I didn't really know they existed until the Fast Forward drama.
Chip and Kim- Perhaps, with Brandon and Nicole, one of the only decent teams in the season.
It should also be noted that Colin performed 8 Roadblocks to Christie's 1.
Basically I'd like to know why Colin and Christy are considered to be so great, but Nick and Starr and Megan and Cheyne are not. Meghan and Cheyne managed to defeat the juggernauts that were Flight Time & Big Easy. And Nick and Starr managed to put together a record string of wins, against Ken and Tina and Toni and Dallas, teams that could have easily won any other season.
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--- Quote from: DavidJunior on February 24, 2010, 02:54:14 AM ---Nick and Starr had to defeat 4 if not 5 very competitive, compotent (for the most part) F6 teams to win their season
Meghan and Cheyne faced down 3 powerhouse M/M teams, and another team with some of the best luck on the race to get the $1 million
Heck, if it weren't for that Passport debacle, it probably would've been 4/5 M/M teams with M/C
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I don't think Season 5 was all that strong, but it was not much weaker than Seasons 6 or 7 were. It was an average race, the kind of which you don't get anymore because of the proliferation of the metagame making it so that most of the teams have at least a basic knowledge of the race.
Chip & Kim were a good team, Charla & Mirna are severely underrated, and Brandon & Nicole were decent. Kami & Karli were horrible, but Linda & Karen had some good legs, and would have been a solid mid-pack team on most other seasons. The thing is, Colin & Christie aren't considered a great team because of the strength of their competition, but because they utterly dominated said competition, to the tune of winning several legs by more than an hour over the second place team, something that doesn't show by merely looking at a graph. This is why they get such respect, and even Rob went out of his way to say Colin was the one racer he wanted to go against.
As for the other two teams you mentioned, I never said Nick & Starr were weak, though I do agree with mswood that Season 13 was the "Season of Idiots". Dandrew did make the Final 3 after all. Ken & Tina slowly self-destructed after leg four, Terence & Sarah likewise hurt themselves with their arguing, Toni & Dallas were good... until Toni let Dallas hold the fanny pack. Despite their weak field I would still put Nick & Starr in that top tier of teams, along with the likes of Colin & Christie, Kris & Jon, Rob & Amber, Dustin & Kandice, Tammy & Victor, and Zach, because they so definitively beat their weak field.
Meghan & Cheyne, on the other hand, won because of their weak field. They never looked all that dominant, and won most of their legs through either pure luck, or all the other teams screwing up. Put Meghan & Cheyne on Season 14, and they have a hard time even making the Final 3. And The Globetrotters were not juggernauts. This was a team that had trouble opening a briefcase, and couldn't unscramble the name "Franz".
And look, just because a team is M/M doesn't make them all that strong. Discounting Danny & Oswald on All-Stars, as they were a returning team, the last good male team was Tyler & James, back on Season 10. Nicolas & Donald barely scraped by on Don’s experience having done everything (literally) in his life, Dan & Andrew were… well, Dandrew, Mark & Michael got lost at every opportunity, Mel & Mike fell apart once the other teams got competitive, Mark & Bill and Zev & Justin made stupid mistakes that got them eliminated early, Flight Time & Big Easy couldn't unscramble the word “Franz”, and Dan & Sam were dysfunctional to the point where it was amazing they made it as far as they did. Then this season you have Louie & Michael and Dan & Jordan, who've finished 8th and 9th on the first two legs. Only Jet & Cord look good so far.
Oh, also:
--- Quote from: DavidJunior on February 24, 2010, 02:54:14 AM ---Chip and Kim (you have to admit that they are probably the worst winners in terms of overall performance)
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Actually, I'd say Chris & Alex are the worst team to ever win the race. They were horrible navigators, had no airport skills, no communication skills, and weren't that smart. The only reason they got into the Final 3 was because Tara insisted on dragging them there.
almightyblue:
--- Quote from: mswood on February 24, 2010, 12:54:56 PM ---The thing with these is one we need to all (myself included) remember that the requirements for being a strong team are different each season.
Things like remembering when judging seasons 1-4 that teams with great placement averages had to deal with the possibility of another team getting in first not to superior racing but due to their being a fast forward available in all but the final leg. One could certainly argue that that really handicaps teams from season 1-4. Then you have the fact that seasons 1-5 allowed one racer to do (though not all teams did some very much split their tasks and responsibilities during the race) which makes it difficult to compare seasons 6-16 to earlier races. Then you have seasons 13 and up that for the most part have removed what was one of the biggest factors of the race and that is the ability to drive and navigate long distance through various countries. Then you have things like the Yield or U-Turn where you can deliberately impede the progress of your fellow racers (something seasons 1-4 didn't have). Then you have your competitors, and let me say that no season has across the board strong racers, each has usually have 4 - 5 teams that simple suck. And I think its actually gotten worse. Look at seasons 13-15. Those seasons have the most penalties, teams that get eliminated through their own carelessness, and choices that just boggle the mind.
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I think what's most relevant was that for the first nine seasons, TAR was a physical game, while for seasons 11 and beyond it's been more of a game of intelligence (when there was intelligence to be had, that is), with 10 being a mix of the two. It's why you see big, strong teams fizzling out mid-race now, while teams like Nick & Starr and Tammy & Victor dominate.
almightyblue:
--- Quote from: DavidJunior on February 24, 2010, 03:26:45 PM ---
for me at least, M/C and N/S had to work throughout their season to make it to the end (which they did with ease), and win. They were just fortunate in that some of their biggest competition kept shooting themselves in the foot along the way.
all Colin and Christie had to do was wait at the top whilst all the sucky teams fell off the pace, to cruise into the finals and win the million. and they couldn't even pull that off.
Colin and Christie - strong? No doubt about it. The strongest team on the race ever? I doubt it.
Nick and Starr - strongest team ever? eh, i felt there were stronger teams than them, but probably would've done just as well in S5
Meghan and Cheyne - I don't think they fit the label as strongest team ever either. But, they too would've dominated in S5 as well
believe me, I don't think S13 and S15 were even close to the most competitive season ever, by any stretch of the imagination. But, S5 doesn't pop up in my mind as a race that was full of competition and super strong teams either.
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Personally, I think you're a bit too dismissive of Season 5, and far too generous to the teams racing on Seasons 13 and 15, especially 15. The thing is, Nick & Starr and Meghan & Chenye and whoever else you want to name would not have done just as well in Colin & Christie's place. This is not because they're weaker teams (which they probably are) but because Colin & Christie pretty much destroyed the metagame that was in place back then, and rebuilt it. Most of these teams would not do as well as they did without all the strategies that stemmed from what Colin & Christie did back on Season 5.
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