Author Topic: The Head-to-Head/Face Off/Double Battle - Pros? Cons? Suggestions?  (Read 2505 times)

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Offline dryedmangoez

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So there's always been lots of discussion about TAR Canada's Face Off and especially TARUS' Head-to-Head, both adapted from TAR Israel's Double Battle.

What are everyone's thoughts on the TAR twist? And specifically, TARUS' implementation of the twist after now two seasons with it. Any suggestions to improve it? Its placement in a Leg? Should it be eliminated entirely?

Previous Discussion:

... phase out Head to head task or at least not use it to elimination purpose!

Regarding that: Let's speculate on if this is coming back. Probably, but would production put one in during the middle of a leg? It would actually make more sense to do it then, only because it would be a good "can they come back from this" story. Doubt it would happen, though.
In an interview before TAR31's premiere and obviously after TAR32 was filmed, Phil was asked this and he basically said he doesn't see a difference whether or not it is placed at the end. So if it returns, I doubt they'd change it. Unfortunately.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Face-offs (head to head) were successful in Israel versions but failed in other versions because TARI's leg structure was longer (from season 2 to 6 each leg is usually covered in 3 episodes some in 4 episodes)

If someone writes me up a NICE summary of why it absolutely matters, I'll forward it to BVM, Phil, Pat etc.  }:>
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 07:52:05 AM by georgiapeach »

Offline BourkieBoy

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Re: The Head-to-Head/Face Off/Double Battle - Pros? Cons? Suggestions?
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2019, 04:09:14 AM »
First off, the US version needs to please start calling it the Face-Off. Head-To-Head has NEVER seemed right, IMO!

I don't mind seeing the H2H at the end of the US Leg, but I think it's time to change it up. I don't want to keep seeing it at the end of the leg! Put in between a Roadblock or Detour for instance!

Canada does it much better. I don't watch the Israeli version, so I can't comment on how well the Double Battle works!
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Offline georgiapeach

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Re: The Head-to-Head/Face Off/Double Battle - Pros? Cons? Suggestions?
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2019, 07:59:08 AM »
I think the crucial part here is WHY the placement within a leg matters.

And why it should/shouldn't be used in the penultimate legs.

Since I have seen a lot of intelligent comments  before from you all about WHY this matters...let's try to pull together a discussion that might show Phil and production why we think this is an issue.

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Offline elthemagnifico

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Re: The Head-to-Head/Face Off/Double Battle - Pros? Cons? Suggestions?
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2019, 08:24:11 AM »
The pro of putting H&H at the end of the leg is to give a trailed team a chance to fight back from elimination = an expected good drama to produce on tv

But the cons of it, and its bigger than they thought, are basically, all the other preceded tasks become useless and pointless, and racers face frustration of
the fact that no matter how good their performances are, their end placement is eventually determined by the H&H
what might have been

Offline Cyzoran

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Re: The Head-to-Head/Face Off/Double Battle - Pros? Cons? Suggestions?
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2019, 08:29:13 AM »
My biggest complaint about a head to head is the waiting for another team. If I get to a Head to head with a 30 minute lead on the team behind me, it practically penalizes me. This affects my starting time of the next leg, and it doesn't matter how well I did on the previous leg. I think there should be a max time waiting for Head to heads.

When a team arrives, they should flip over an hourglass (kinda like the yields) can be 15 minutes, 30 minutes, whatever production thinks is fair. And if another team does not arrive by that time, the team should be able to bypass the Head to Head and check in.
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Offline dryedmangoez

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Re: The Head-to-Head/Face Off/Double Battle - Pros? Cons? Suggestions?
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2019, 03:18:34 PM »
What elthemagnifico said.

The H2H at the end of the Leg essentially brings the Leg to a screeching halt and practically negates everything that happened in the Leg before it. That does not happen with a U-Turn where teams have to keep going and still hustle, not sit around waiting for another team. The Intersection's placement on a Leg also mattered. If it was at the end of the Leg or before a simpler task, then it guaranteed one of the last pair to Intersect would be eliminated. And that's not the most exciting.

That brings up the big question, What is Bertram and Co.'s goal in bringing over the H2H to TARUS?
I think that can explain their reasoning. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but no other TAR who has adopted the twist has made it a point to place it at the end of the Leg, RIGHT NEXT TO the Pit Stop. So that aspect is solely a Bertram and Co. idea.

Having the H2H at the beginning of the Leg, for example, basically works like an Hours of Operation equalizer or the forced staggered release times of teams after an HOO (teams leave every 5 minutes/pick a departure time). Even if a team finishes the H2H last, it doesn't guarantee their elimination and they still have the entire Leg for everything to happen. Same idea if the H2H comes in the middle of the Leg too.

The H2H also works similarly to a "first come, first served" task (regularly used during Road Blocks, for example). Teams have wait in line for a turn to perform, one at a time. Having these kinds of tasks at the end of the Leg removes any excitement over a Race to the Mat, unless a team gets themselves horribly lost. And that does not happen often. That's why there are much better earlier in the Leg or at the very least, with another task as a buffer between it and the Pit Stop.

The Head to Head should be something that drives competition, excitement and inter-team drama. It shouldn't be an elimination showdown.

Offline georgiapeach

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Re: The Head-to-Head/Face Off/Double Battle - Pros? Cons? Suggestions?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2019, 10:00:38 PM »
.

The Head to Head should be something that drives competition, excitement and inter-team drama. It shouldn't be an elimination showdown.

THIS!!
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Offline Declive

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Re: The Head-to-Head/Face Off/Double Battle - Pros? Cons? Suggestions?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2019, 11:14:25 PM »
.

The Head to Head should be something that drives competition, excitement and inter-team drama. It shouldn't be an elimination showdown.

Agreed.

And also, my advice: don't use it on the race. I think it's really lame.
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Offline G.B.

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Re: The Head-to-Head/Face Off/Double Battle - Pros? Cons? Suggestions?
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2019, 12:30:44 AM »
The H2H being at the end of the leg brings up issues for me that are very similar to my current rants at the Israeli version currently airing. For those who don't know, every single leg of the current Israeli season, thus far, has featured a 100% luck-based task directly before the Pit Stop. My argument there is that it rendered the rest of the leg as completely pointless. A team I like is ahead? I don't get excited because it could get erased (This HAPPENED, a team showed up at the luck task in 2nd, and fell all the way to last place when they hit the mat). A team I dislike is falling behind? Still don't get that hype, because the luck task could just save them outright. It's quite a joke when skill is unrewarded and lack of skill is unpunished.

And it's the same issue here. While the H2H is not luck, certainly, it still wildly affects too much of the Race and indeed makes it feel like the rest of the leg is insignificant. I know it's not a one-to-one comparison, but to me they're both bad in similar ways.

Here's my take on it: **The Race is not a sprint, it's a marathon**. Even in today's more compact and controlled Race, a team cannot solely rely upon their skill at completing tasks. Every single little part of the Race matters in whether you get eliminated or not. Travel, driving, taxi drivers, money management, even little things like drinking enough water or purchasing maps (Jet and Daaaaaave). Sure tasks like Roadblocks, Detours and even Head-to-Heads are important in shaking up the order of the Race, but it's a RACE. It's not an obstacle course. If a team is excelling at the tasks, but getting completely and utterly lost in the back roads of a foreign country, then that means they are likely going to be eliminated. If there's a Head-to-Head at the end of that leg, then getting lost no longer matters. All that matters is whether they can win at this one task or not.

But even then, the flipside of the discussion isn't really that great either. The argument has been made that putting the H2H at the end of the leg allows the potential for struggling teams to possibly catch up. But...does it really? A team that arrives in 1st will get many, many tries at the same game. A team that arrives in last only gets one single chance to win in a game they've never played before. If Bertram & Co's intention is to save struggling teams, I don't think that's the way to do it.

So, the end-of-leg-H2H simultaneously invalidates the previous tasks of the leg AND does little to provide its intended purpose. Really, the only thing the H2H accomplishes is the chance for a team with a stellar performance to be eliminated. If Henry & Evan had continued to get more and more exhausted, there was the potential that they could not have won and they would have just been eliminated. Boy, THAT would have been a lot of "fun" to watch. And I can say this from experience. Let's go back to the Israeli luck tasks again. The 5th leg (in Zimbabwe) ended with the elimination of a team through no fault of their own whatsoever. This team showed up at the luck task in 5th place, but bad RNG dropped them to the back of the pack and they were eliminated. Let me tell you, it was not fun to watch. It was not a shocking and interesting shakeup. It was NOT FAIR.

I adored the Head-to-Head (ie, Double Battle) when it first showed up, but...I dunno, I'm losing faith in it. I think what others said is true: The Head-to-Head only seems to work on the Israeli version because they have much longer Legs. On a couple of Israeli H2H's, a team has been dropped all the way to last on a H2H because either they choose to (Alon & Oren, season 2), or because of injury (Roni & Yael, Gal & Liel, season 4), but this did not immediately spell DOOM for the team. It made it much more interesting to see them try to overcome this deficit on the rest of the leg. Isn't that why Bertram & Co invented the Speed Bump? The penalty of the H2H should be extra adversity to overcome, not straight-up elimination.
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Offline dryedmangoez

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Re: The Head-to-Head/Face Off/Double Battle - Pros? Cons? Suggestions?
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2019, 01:08:51 AM »
Another example of how a H2H can be used effectively is TARPH2's first Leg.

Their first ever "Duel" was a literal sprint. Teams faced off in a 100m sprint. And Zara & Osang, who were definitely not as physically fit as the other teams, had to face off against 7 other teams. Meanwhile, earlier teams had made deals so they could end up facing off against teams they were sure to beat (particularly Zara & Osang).

(The fact they had sprinting as a Duel is a whole other discussion in and of itself.)

But in spite of such a physical task for Zarah & Osang (plus the extra lap as a last place penalty), they were able to complete the Detour and a dance performance Active Route Info task ahead of two other teams on the way to the Pit Stop.

They ended up being eliminated anyway, but only because torrential rain had caused widespread flooding in Manila. They stayed in their cab that had to go the long way around the flooded and congested roads while the last two teams got out earlier and waded through knee and sometimes waist-high water. If it hadn't rained, Zarah & Osang would've overcome the brutally physical Duel and survived.

But you're not getting any of this with a H2H right next to the Pit Stop. Never.


Offline toanglobal

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Re: The Head-to-Head/Face Off/Double Battle - Pros? Cons? Suggestions?
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2019, 10:40:33 PM »
If Head To Head was introduced several seasons earlier, I thought Dave & Connor would struggled because he think he is old

Offline Mandoli

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Re: The Head-to-Head/Face Off/Double Battle - Pros? Cons? Suggestions?
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2019, 11:16:40 AM »
The Head to Head should be something that drives competition, excitement and inter-team drama. It shouldn't be an elimination showdown.

Just saw this, but... BINGO. TAR shouldn't have to rely on this mini-competition a few times through the course of the race in order to see which team gets eliminated. I'd like to see someone interject this into the middle of the leg for once (and maybe as a trial?). I want to see what happens when someone gets last place in this, and watch how they try to battle from adversity with a few more tasks ahead of them.

Basically, it should be a team effort to get to the end of the leg. Not just the work of one person.
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Offline redskevin88

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Re: The Head-to-Head/Face Off/Double Battle - Pros? Cons? Suggestions?
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2019, 09:14:06 PM »
If Head To Head was introduced several seasons earlier, I thought Dave & Connor would struggled because he think he is old

Not the Head to Head's fault then.