Author Topic: AR22 Transportation  (Read 72526 times)

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Offline apskip

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #150 on: March 26, 2013, 12:06:25 PM »
Chateau,
Is the glass half empty or half full? It depends on how you look at it. Although Katie and you are technically correct that 4 total days (one for only 26 minutes) were involved, it was still only 2.7 days elapsed time. I find what you and Katie are stating very misleading.

Offline theschnauzers

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #151 on: March 27, 2013, 12:02:14 AM »
Another element to consider is the number of time zones involved in the travel. That's more of a subjective sense for the racers actually doing the traveling.

Which is a roundabout way of saying that for the teams, it must have felt like four days of travel, and teams would have had to get ready for their release from the pit stop in Hanoi, especially if they got to sleep during their rest period. So I can understand that perception of four days in the comment.
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Offline apskip

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #152 on: April 01, 2013, 11:14:13 AM »
Here is possibilities for what could happen once teams reach Zurich airport (the obvious entry point into Switzerland since the nonstops arrived at 0610 on Nov. 28 and 0616 on Nov. 29):

trains to Brig:
dep. Zurich airport 0813 arrive Brig 1031
                              0840                  1102
                              0843                  1102 (change in Bern)   

trains to Visp (obviously the same ones):
dep. Zurich airport 0813 arrive Visp 1040
dep.                       0840 arrive         1112
dep.                       0843 arrive         1112 (change in Bern)
and the same pattern at :40 and :43 after each hour

 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 08:09:58 AM by apskip »

Offline DrRox

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #153 on: April 01, 2013, 11:25:03 AM »
Updated flight schedules on Nov 28/29, 2013.

Maun to Johannesburg
4z 8301   2:00pm to 3:40 pm
BP 211     2:20 pm to 4:00pm

Johannesburg to Zurich
LX 289   8:25pm to 6:10am (arriving on Nov 29th)

Train to Interlaken from Zurich Airport
1) 6:40 am to 8:51 am
2) 7:13 am to 9:28 am
3) 7:13 am to 9:51 am
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Offline Mattjimf

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #154 on: April 02, 2013, 04:16:06 AM »
Possible flights from Edinburgh to Belfast on 4th December (if the Edinburgh/Belfast legs are keep racing legs):
Belfast International:
BFS Belfast   U2 488   easyJet    4:30 PM    4:23 PM       Landed   On-time    319   
BFS Belfast   U2 492   easyJet    9:05 PM    9:03 PM       Landed   On-time    319   

Belfast City:
BHD Belfast   BE 688   FlyBE    3:25 PM    3:31 PM       Landed   On-time    DH4   
BHD Belfast   BE 690   FlyBE    6:30 PM    7:32 PM       Landed   49 min    DH4   


Offline apskip

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #155 on: April 03, 2013, 08:38:36 AM »
Updated flight schedules on Nov 28/29, 2013.

Maun to Johannesburg
4z 8301   2:00pm to 3:40 pm
BP 211     2:20 pm to 4:00pm

Johannesburg to Zurich
LX 289   8:25pm to 6:10am (arriving on Nov 29th)

Train to Interlaken from Zurich Airport
1) 6:40 am to 8:51 am
2) 7:13 am to 9:28 am
3) 7:13 am to 9:51 am


[/quote]
Actually, Dr. Rox, there is nothing "updated" about your schedules. The Maun to Johannesburg schedule (no actual available as we both know) remain as I stated them in post 147 above.

The Johannesburg to Zurich schedule for departure Nov. 28 and arrival Nov. 29 is LX289 2102 0616+1. That's only 6 minutes arrival time different and 37 minutes departure time different, but your revision is not correct.

The big problem I have with your update is with your using train times from 24 minutes and 57 minutes for arrival inside the plane in Zurich airport. Switzerland has been a Schwengen system member since 12 December 2008. Entry into the Schwengen system is a little bit more rigorous since once inside it travelers can cross European borders with minimal delay (that applies to Zurich to Berlin flights coming up in leg 9). I can see SwissRail departures from Zurich airport to be maybe as early as 743am, but not before. Arrival times for that would be one hour earlier than I posted for 843am and at 957am in Interlaken Ost. The question of where teams are going for the leg 8 tasks is moot from a train departure standpoint if the current ideas on the table (Brig or Visp from me and Interlaken Ost or West from you) are correct.
 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 10:22:18 AM by apskip »

Offline apskip

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #156 on: April 12, 2013, 03:41:34 PM »
I have started my analysis of how teams might have gotten from Zurich to Berlin. The most obvious way is ot fly from Zurich but which airports might you fly to. Berlin has these airports:

BER Brandenburg
EDBT Allstedt
GWW Gatow (an RAF facility)
SFX Schoenfield
TWF Tempelhof
TXL Tegel

Well, one of the things that you learn as a by-product of doing Amazing Race transportation research is that from Zurich, the only airport you can fly directly to is Tegel. I am not sure whether there was an extended pit stop in Switzerland. If I were designing a race I would certainly put one there (as well as one in Botswana). It is likely that teams ran leg 8 on Nov. 29, so they would be ready to head for Berlin on Nov. 30 or likely Dec. 1. Here are the actual flights ZRH to TXL on both dates:

Nov. 30
AB8121 0652 0819
EDW974 0725 0901
LX976   0850 0851
AB8529 1042 1208
LH966  1240 1403
LX970  1649 1812
AB8319 1721 1846
LX978  1748 1912
AB8199 1952 2107
LH962   2040 2210
AB8175 2125 2255


Dec. 1
AB8121 0642 0801
EDW974 0725 0855
LX976   0850 1018
LH566  1240 1401
AB8211 1452 1611
LH970   1631 1748
LX978   1745 1906
LH962   2040 2159
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 04:06:19 PM by apskip »

Offline apskip

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #157 on: April 12, 2013, 04:42:47 PM »
It is possible, although in my judgment unlikely, that teams may be required to use train travel to get from Zurich to Berlin. There are trains on every hour from 6am to 4pm. All require 1 or 2 changes. for the ones on the even-numbered hour, the change is typically at Hannover. For ones on odd numbers, the change is typically at Basel. One of the trains changes at Basel and Frankfurt and one at Basel and Hannover. The duration of the on-the-hour departures from Zurich varies from 8 hours 4 minutes to 8 hours 25 minutes.

If I were designing this Amazing Race leg 9, I would have teams fly.

Offline apskip

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #158 on: April 14, 2013, 10:55:47 PM »
The statement for leg 8 that teams arrived Zurich around 2pm makes it hard to back-calculate how this was done. The first flights Maun to JNB were as stated in an earlier post, 2pm and 220pm departures. I already knew that the nonstops to Zurich arrived at 0610 on Nov. 29 or at 0616 on Nov. 30, also stated in an earlier post.

That left be searching for alternate routes that would land on those dates in Zurich around 2pm and the answer to that was the null set. I tried connecting in Addis Ababa, Cairo, Munich, Frankfurt, Paris-CDG and Rome. Nothing got to Zurich at the stated time. The only one remotely close was via AMS. Here are the flights:

dep. JNB 11/28 0000+1 arr. AMS 1014+1  or dep. JNB 11/29 2358 arr. AMS 1016+1
Connections are on AMS ZRH 11/29  WA1959 1204 1324  or 11/30 1201 1322

Offline DrRox

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #159 on: April 15, 2013, 01:39:42 AM »
I have started my analysis of how teams might have gotten from Zurich to Berlin. The most obvious way is ot fly from Zurich but which airports might you fly to. Berlin has these airports:

BER Brandenburg
EDBT Allstedt
GWW Gatow (an RAF facility)
SFX Schoenfield
TWF Tempelhof
TXL Tegel


BER Brandenburg--under construction, no fligts land here at this time. Possible opening in 2014 or later.
EDBT Allstedt--no commerical flights since the 1920s when Templehof opened. A research center since then to the 1950s. Berlin's first airport, opened in 1909
GWW Gatow (an RAF facility)--Cold War British zone airfield, closed in 1995
SFX Schoenfield--East German/Soviet Berlin airfield. Operates today and will close when Brandenburg is completed. One runway will be come part of Brandenburg Airport. The Schoenfield terminal will become a German Govt. VIP terminal.
TWF Tempelhof--Cold War American zone airfield, closed in 2008.
TXL Tegel--Cold War French Zone airfield. Operates today, it will close when Brandenburg is opened. It has most of all the commerical flights into Berlin at this time.

There are only two commerical airports in Berlin at present, Tegel and Schoenfield. As apskip stated, only Tegel receives flights from Zurich. Tegel is located in north central Berlin.
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Offline maf

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #160 on: April 17, 2013, 01:07:11 AM »
That left be searching for alternate routes that would land on those dates in Zurich around 2pm and the answer to that was the null set. I tried connecting in Addis Ababa, Cairo, Munich, Frankfurt, Paris-CDG and Rome. Nothing got to Zurich at the stated time. The only one remotely close was via AMS.

How about via London.
 BA56 JNB-LHR Nov-28 20:20-05:07+1
 BA714 LHR-ZRH Nov-29 12:01-14:49 (was 0:49 late)

This combination is the most probably one I have found. It fits nicely with taking the train from Zurich at 15:40. Sure, there were two earlier flights from London in the day, but they may have been full.

Offline apskip

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #161 on: April 17, 2013, 06:04:02 AM »
maf,

As Professor Henry Higgins was fond of saying "I think you've got it." I looked at 7 different connections and reported the closest one, Amsterdam. The Nov. 29th London-Heathrow to Zurich flight does not match well with the time required for Schengen zone initial entry, finding the rail station and buying a ticket at 51 minutes in Zurich. However, the flight on Nov. 30th is almost a perfect fit with what a match with reported time on the telecast requires:

11/30 BA714 1118 1402

The UK has not joined the Schengen zone, which means that passengers from outside the zone on this itinerary would be screened for it in Zurich.

Offline DrRox

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #162 on: April 17, 2013, 10:03:34 PM »
That is some terrific detective work, maf!!!
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Offline maf

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #163 on: April 18, 2013, 06:02:19 AM »
finding the rail station and buying a ticket at 51 minutes in Zurich. However, the flight on Nov. 30th is almost a perfect fit with what a match with reported time on the telecast requires:

11/30 BA714 1118 1402

The problem with that is that we have strong indications that teams did race in Grindelwald on the 30th. Phil was spotted on that date and we see that date filmed at least once in the episode (as teams arrive at Kleine Scheidegg). This means they had to arrive in Zurich on the 29th.

So the question is if it is probable that teams managed to catch the 15.40 train when their delayed flight landed at 14:49. I believe that this is possible with a bit of luck, short immigration lines and no checked luggage.

Offline DrRox

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #164 on: April 18, 2013, 08:30:16 PM »
The problem with that is that we have strong indications that teams did race in Grindelwald on the 30th. Phil was spotted on that date and we see that date filmed at least once in the episode (as teams arrive at Kleine Scheidegg). This means they had to arrive in Zurich on the 29th.

So the question is if it is probable that teams managed to catch the 15.40 train when their delayed flight landed at 14:49. I believe that this is possible with a bit of luck, short immigration lines and no checked luggage.

Looking at Zurich arrivals on Nov 29......there was a non Shengen flight one hour before and a small non Shengan flight about 30 minutes(2:18) before that flight arrived at 2:49. I wouldn't think that there would be much of a line by the time our racers arrived. Seems to me to be plenty of time to clear immigration/customs and get a train.
Matthew 7:15

Offline apskip

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #165 on: April 21, 2013, 07:10:13 AM »
The train schedulles going up to Jungfraujoch make it clear which trains teams would have been on:

dep. Grindelwald 0947
arr. Kleine Scheidegg 1017
dep. Kleine Scheidegg 1100
arr. Jungfraujoch 1152

I have been trying to track down a schedule for stops and pickups at the Eigerwand "flag stop". I did not get off there when I visited but remember it as not a real station, just a point where passengers got off or on to view the Gletschsglacier. Here are the train schedules for afternoon from Jungfraujoch down to Grindelwald Grund station:

depart  Jungfraujoch   arrive Kleine Scheidegg   depart Kleine Scheidegg  arrive Grindelwald Grund

1200                                           1250                                  1303                               1335
1230                                           1320                                  1333                               1405 
1300                                           1350                                  1403                               1435 
1330                                           1420                                  1433                               1505
1400                                           1450                                  1503                               1535
1430                                           1520                                  1533                               1605
1500                                           1550                                  1603                               1635
1530                                           1620                                  1633                               1705

So all teams must have gotten on the first or second of these at Jungfraujoch and exited at Eigerwand minutes later. 4 teams would have reboarded the next train and arrived Grindelwald Grund. Joey/Meghan and Churck/Wynona would have been on the following train down.

When I look at the sunset for Grindelwald Nov. 29, 2011 (which I have to estimate based on a 7 minute offset from Geneva) it was at 445pm.
 
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 07:28:30 AM by apskip »

Offline DrRox

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #166 on: April 22, 2013, 09:38:24 AM »
Swiss Railroads changed their schedules about once a year in December. So the scedules were changed after TAR used the railroads in Swizterland. The earliest train leaving Grindelwald is about 6:00 am.

The telecast showed teams going to Basel from Interlaken and then from Basel to Munich.This really doesnt make much sense. That makes it an ~8 hour trip to Munich. Most of the train connections go through Mannheim, Germany. It takes about 3 hours to ride the train from Mannheim to Munich. But Mannheim is only about 30 minutes from the Frankfurt airport by train.

I need to rewatch the program and see where Phil is....I dont remember him in Dresden.
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Offline apskip

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #167 on: April 22, 2013, 02:40:59 PM »
What the telecast for leg 9 showed on transportation makes perfect sense, as it was multi-modal. Here is what teams did:

Left Grindelwald on the 526am train
arrived Interlaken Ost about 6am
departed Interlaken Ost with min. layover
arrive Basel 734am

switched to fly to Munich IQ2393 BSL MUC 0920 1035
connect in Munich to fly to Dresden CL2104 MUC DRS 1120 1223

So teams would take taxis to the Ministry of Finance and reach their FORD FOCUS cars about 1pm. 
100 miles Dresden to Berlin means arrival there around 3pm.

Editor's note - an alternate approach has been suggested based on the pit stop release really being in Interlaken. The train schedule for an early train from Interlaken West to Basel was:
depart Interlaken West 0526am
arrive Basel 0729am

That is only a slight difference in Basel arrival time and the flight schedule would remain the same.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 02:32:48 PM by apskip »

Offline apskip

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #168 on: April 22, 2013, 04:31:23 PM »
Only flights connecting at Amsterdam or London-Heathrow make sense to me. I have all the flight schedules below.

Here are the possible flights on Dec. 3 from Berlin-Tegel to Amsterdam (TXL AMS):

KL1818   0555 0718
WA1822 1006 1148
KL1824   1413 1535
KL1826   1329 1546


Here are the flights on Dec. 3 from Berlin-Tegel to London Heathrow (TXL LHR):

BA981   0709 0802
LH3372 0739 0829
BA993   1225 1343
LH3374 1243 1344
BA983   1405 1511
BA985   1637 1740
LH3376  1751 1857
BA987    1940 2039

Possible connections for AMS EDI are:

WA1277  0758 0821
KL1879   1025 1137
U2 6922   1307 1336
WA1887  1220 1250
KL1285    1622 1640
KL1283    2127 2159
U2 6924   2144 2203

Possible connections for LHR EDI are:

BA1432    0638 0809
BA1434    0812 0929
BA1442    1050 1224
BA1444    1246 1408
BA1448    1434 1556
BA1446    1510 1632
BA1452    1550 1718
BA1454    1744 1907
BA1458    1834 1950
BA1456    1924 2041
BA1464    2158 2308   

The much heavier schedules make Heathrow a much more probable connecting point than Amsterdam.

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #169 on: April 22, 2013, 04:41:19 PM »
What time did the sun set in Berlin by those dates? I think it was between Max & Katie's arrival to the Brandenburg Gate and the Joey & Meghan one, I would say later than 3 PM, don't know. Think of all the driving in the city center of Berlin.


Offline Mattjimf

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #170 on: April 22, 2013, 04:58:19 PM »
Sunrise and sunset Berlin
Sunday, December 2, 2012

Morning astronomical twilight   05:51
Morning nautical twilight   06:33
Morning civil twilight   07:16
Sunrise   07:57
Transit   11:56
Sunset   15:55
Evening civil twilight   16:35
Evening nautical twilight   17:18
Evening astronomical twilight   18:00

Offline apskip

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #171 on: April 22, 2013, 07:35:42 PM »
I took a look at 4 other London area airports which offer flights to Edinburgh to see if they also receive flights nonstop from Tegel. London Center, Gatwick, Luton and Stansted do not have any flight arrivals form Tegel. Only Heathrow does have them.

Offline ruadhan

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #172 on: April 22, 2013, 07:53:57 PM »
You're leaving out obvious information.... taking into account the info from the preview (i.e. a flight arriving at 4, a three hour lead and the fact that the teams were at a lufthansa desk), with a quick flight search lufthansa flight via frankfurt that arrives at 1 and another one via brussels that arrives at 4 are much more likely... No need to make it more complicated than it is apskip...

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #173 on: April 23, 2013, 12:59:20 AM »
What the telecast for leg 9 showed on transportation makes perfect sense, as it was multi-modal. Here is what teams did:

Left Grindelwald on the 526am train
arrived Interlaken Ost about 6am

I think teams started the leg in Interlaken. They started from the garden of a fairly large hotel, and there was green grass on the ground. Not snow-covered as it was in Grindelwald. And The train station they walk to is Interlaken West.

Offline Mattjimf

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #174 on: April 23, 2013, 03:30:11 AM »
Lufthansa flights arriving at Edinburgh Airport on 3rd December:
FRA Frankfurt   LH 962   Lufthansa    1:00 PM    1:13 PM       Landed   On-time    320   
BRU Brussels   LH 5624   Lufthansa    4:00 PM    3:40 PM       Landed   On-time    319   

The only other one was from Newark which I discounted.