Author Topic: AR22 Transportation  (Read 22128 times)

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Offline Declive

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #150 on: March 25, 2013, 02:44:43 PM »
Whaaat? We could have Leg 10 in Edinburgh and Leg 11 in Northern Ireland?
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Offline georgiapeach

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #151 on: March 25, 2013, 02:47:39 PM »
OR...that could be a double leg. Unknown, except by our dates...
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Offline Chateau d If

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Re: TAR22 Transportation
« Reply #152 on: March 25, 2013, 02:48:55 PM »
There is an Insider vid saying that teams travelled for 4 days getting to Botswana. :ascared

Good thing Wynona took a nap in Hong Kong!
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Offline apskip

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #153 on: March 25, 2013, 03:13:52 PM »
There is an Insider vid saying that teams travelled for 4 days getting to Botswana. :ascared

Peach, thanks for directing me to the Insider video with Katie stating "it took us 4 days and 6 flights to get to Maun." I say that's rubbish, as that would be highly unlikely from what we know about flights! The Amazing Line for flights on last night's telecast  showed HAN to HKG to JNB. With the actual flight information for the relevant dates and those routes I cited above, here is what I believe happened:

Nov. 23 (although everything could be moved one day if there was some extended pit stop we do not know about and cannot take into account - HAN HKG
Nov. 23 - departure HKG (same comment)
Nov. 24 - arrival JNB and transfer JNB MUB arriving early afternoon (same comment); there was obviously an overnight in Maun although I would have flown them out to the Makgadikgali Pans and made them sleep on cots!
Nov. 25 - final flight MUB to Xhumaga airstrip departing between 9am and 930am

That's exactly 4 flights, with it very unlikely that any alternate routes from HKG to JNB were used. It happened in total elapsed time of an apparent 47 hours plus the time zone difference of 5 hours between HKG and MUB, for a real total of approximately 52 hours in route. That's not 4 days no matter how you look at it.

Perhaps Katie was adding in the overnight hours in Hanoi, but that still would not get it to more than 63 hours (2.7 days).
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 03:52:53 PM by apskip »

Offline apskip

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #154 on: March 25, 2013, 03:39:03 PM »
Thanks, Alanevada for providing the sequence of future legs. Here are the flights JNB nonstop to ZRH:

Nov. 27 LX289 2038 0610+1 or
Nov. 28 LX289 2102 0616+1

From there, I expect that trains would be taken to almost everywhere in Switzerland that leg 8 went to.


Offline georgiapeach

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #155 on: March 25, 2013, 06:04:42 PM »
There is an Insider vid saying that teams travelled for 4 days getting to Botswana. :ascared

Peach, thanks for directing me to the Insider video with Katie stating "it took us 4 days and 6 flights to get to Maun." I say that's rubbish, as that would be highly unlikely from what we know about flights! The Amazing Line for flights on last night's telecast  showed HAN to HKG to JNB. With the actual flight information for the relevant dates and those routes I cited above, here is what I believe happened:

Nov. 23 (although everything could be moved one day if there was some extended pit stop we do not know about and cannot take into account - HAN HKG
Nov. 23 - departure HKG (same comment)
Nov. 24 - arrival JNB and transfer JNB MUB arriving early afternoon (same comment); there was obviously an overnight in Maun although I would have flown them out to the Makgadikgali Pans and made them sleep on cots!
Nov. 25 - final flight MUB to Xhumaga airstrip departing between 9am and 930am

That's exactly 4 flights, with it very unlikely that any alternate routes from HKG to JNB were used. It happened in total elapsed time of an apparent 47 hours plus the time zone difference of 5 hours between HKG and MUB, for a real total of approximately 52 hours in route. That's not 4 days no matter how you look at it.

Perhaps Katie was adding in the overnight hours in Hanoi, but that still would not get it to more than 63 hours (2.7 days).

remember we have the ACTUAL flight and DATE used HAN>>HK

http://forum.realityfanforum.com/index.php/topic,28045.msg818041.html#msg818041

I quoted all times as it happened in my time, should be an easy conversion. :tup:
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Offline apskip

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #156 on: March 26, 2013, 08:36:16 AM »
Peach:

"Nov. 23 (although everything could be moved one day if there was some extended pit stop we do not know about and cannot take into account) - HAN HKG

So you can change all the dates I cited to one day later and all the flights still work plus there are additional flights in each of the same time frame going on the same routes:

HAN HKG
KA296 1055 1333 or WN592 1040 1322

HKG JNB
SA287 2333 0644+1 or CX749 2345 0620+1

We do not have precise times for JNB MUB, just these schedules for every day:  BP212 1140 1320 or 4Z8300 1145 1325

We can assume that leg 6 did not reach Maun until Nov. 26 and with leg 27 probably beginning early on Nov. 27 leg 8 could not be earlier than Nov. 28. If there was an extended pit stop in Africa, then it could have been Nov. 29.

Fights MUB JNB are the same schedules for Nov. 28 and Nov. 29; we have those as 4Z8301 1400 1540 or BP211 1420 1600

We now have the nonstop flight JNB ZRH as Nov. 28 LX289 2102 0616+1 or Nov. 29 LX289 2048 0611+1
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 09:05:37 AM by apskip »

Offline Chateau d If

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #157 on: March 26, 2013, 10:32:22 AM »
There is an Insider vid saying that teams travelled for 4 days getting to Botswana. :ascared

Peach, thanks for directing me to the Insider video with Katie stating "it took us 4 days and 6 flights to get to Maun." I say that's rubbish, as that would be highly unlikely from what we know about flights! The Amazing Line for flights on last night's telecast  showed HAN to HKG to JNB. With the actual flight information for the relevant dates and those routes I cited above, here is what I believe happened:

Nov. 23 (although everything could be moved one day if there was some extended pit stop we do not know about and cannot take into account - HAN HKG
Nov. 23 - departure HKG (same comment)
Nov. 24 - arrival JNB and transfer JNB MUB arriving early afternoon (same comment); there was obviously an overnight in Maun although I would have flown them out to the Makgadikgali Pans and made them sleep on cots!
Nov. 25 - final flight MUB to Xhumaga airstrip departing between 9am and 930am

That's exactly 4 flights, with it very unlikely that any alternate routes from HKG to JNB were used. It happened in total elapsed time of an apparent 47 hours plus the time zone difference of 5 hours between HKG and MUB, for a real total of approximately 52 hours in route. That's not 4 days no matter how you look at it.

Perhaps Katie was adding in the overnight hours in Hanoi, but that still would not get it to more than 63 hours (2.7 days).

I believe the four day comment is valid when you consider it as the number of calendar days touched in the process of getting from Hanoi to the first task of the leg.

November 23rd:  Teams are released beginning at 10:40 pm
November 24th:  Teams take their flights from HAN to HKG (and HKG to JNB with its takeoff at 11:45 pm)
November 25th:  Teams land at JNB and take their flights to MUB and spending the night waiting for the charter flights in the morning
November 26th:  Teams take their charter flights starting at 9:00 am

There!  Four days.
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Offline apskip

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #158 on: March 26, 2013, 12:06:25 PM »
Chateau,
Is the glass half empty or half full? It depends on how you look at it. Although Katie and you are technically correct that 4 total days (one for only 26 minutes) were involved, it was still only 2.7 days elapsed time. I find what you and Katie are stating very misleading.

Offline theschnauzers

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #159 on: March 27, 2013, 12:02:14 AM »
Another element to consider is the number of time zones involved in the travel. That's more of a subjective sense for the racers actually doing the traveling.

Which is a roundabout way of saying that for the teams, it must have felt like four days of travel, and teams would have had to get ready for their release from the pit stop in Hanoi, especially if they got to sleep during their rest period. So I can understand that perception of four days in the comment.
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Offline apskip

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #160 on: April 01, 2013, 11:14:13 AM »
Here is possibilities for what could happen once teams reach Zurich airport (the obvious entry point into Switzerland since the nonstops arrived at 0610 on Nov. 28 and 0616 on Nov. 29):

trains to Brig:
dep. Zurich airport 0813 arrive Brig 1031
                              0840                  1102
                              0843                  1102 (change in Bern)   

trains to Visp (obviously the same ones):
dep. Zurich airport 0813 arrive Visp 1040
dep.                       0840 arrive         1112
dep.                       0843 arrive         1112 (change in Bern)
and the same pattern at :40 and :43 after each hour

 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 08:09:58 AM by apskip »

Offline DrRox

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #161 on: April 01, 2013, 11:25:03 AM »
Updated flight schedules on Nov 28/29, 2013.

Maun to Johannesburg
4z 8301   2:00pm to 3:40 pm
BP 211     2:20 pm to 4:00pm

Johannesburg to Zurich
LX 289   8:25pm to 6:10am (arriving on Nov 29th)

Train to Interlaken from Zurich Airport
1) 6:40 am to 8:51 am
2) 7:13 am to 9:28 am
3) 7:13 am to 9:51 am
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Offline Mattjimf

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #162 on: April 02, 2013, 04:16:06 AM »
Possible flights from Edinburgh to Belfast on 4th December (if the Edinburgh/Belfast legs are keep racing legs):
Belfast International:
BFS Belfast   U2 488   easyJet    4:30 PM    4:23 PM       Landed   On-time    319   
BFS Belfast   U2 492   easyJet    9:05 PM    9:03 PM       Landed   On-time    319   

Belfast City:
BHD Belfast   BE 688   FlyBE    3:25 PM    3:31 PM       Landed   On-time    DH4   
BHD Belfast   BE 690   FlyBE    6:30 PM    7:32 PM       Landed   49 min    DH4   

Offline apskip

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #163 on: April 03, 2013, 08:38:36 AM »
Updated flight schedules on Nov 28/29, 2013.

Maun to Johannesburg
4z 8301   2:00pm to 3:40 pm
BP 211     2:20 pm to 4:00pm

Johannesburg to Zurich
LX 289   8:25pm to 6:10am (arriving on Nov 29th)

Train to Interlaken from Zurich Airport
1) 6:40 am to 8:51 am
2) 7:13 am to 9:28 am
3) 7:13 am to 9:51 am


[/quote]
Actually, Dr. Rox, there is nothing "updated" about your schedules. The Maun to Johannesburg schedule (no actual available as we both know) remain as I stated them in post 147 above.

The Johannesburg to Zurich schedule for departure Nov. 28 and arrival Nov. 29 is LX289 2102 0616+1. That's only 6 minutes arrival time different and 37 minutes departure time different, but your revision is not correct.

The big problem I have with your update is with your using train times from 24 minutes and 57 minutes for arrival inside the plane in Zurich airport. Switzerland has been a Schwengen system member since 12 December 2008. Entry into the Schwengen system is a little bit more rigorous since once inside it travelers can cross European borders with minimal delay (that applies to Zurich to Berlin flights coming up in leg 9). I can see SwissRail departures from Zurich airport to be maybe as early as 743am, but not before. Arrival times for that would be one hour earlier than I posted for 843am and at 957am in Interlaken Ost. The question of where teams are going for the leg 8 tasks is moot from a train departure standpoint if the current ideas on the table (Brig or Visp from me and Interlaken Ost or West from you) are correct.
 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 10:22:18 AM by apskip »

Offline apskip

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #164 on: April 12, 2013, 03:41:34 PM »
I have started my analysis of how teams might have gotten from Zurich to Berlin. The most obvious way is ot fly from Zurich but which airports might you fly to. Berlin has these airports:

BER Brandenburg
EDBT Allstedt
GWW Gatow (an RAF facility)
SFX Schoenfield
TWF Tempelhof
TXL Tegel

Well, one of the things that you learn as a by-product of doing Amazing Race transportation research is that from Zurich, the only airport you can fly directly to is Tegel. I am not sure whether there was an extended pit stop in Switzerland. If I were designing a race I would certainly put one there (as well as one in Botswana). It is likely that teams ran leg 8 on Nov. 29, so they would be ready to head for Berlin on Nov. 30 or likely Dec. 1. Here are the actual flights ZRH to TXL on both dates:

Nov. 30
AB8121 0652 0819
EDW974 0725 0901
LX976   0850 0851
AB8529 1042 1208
LH966  1240 1403
LX970  1649 1812
AB8319 1721 1846
LX978  1748 1912
AB8199 1952 2107
LH962   2040 2210
AB8175 2125 2255


Dec. 1
AB8121 0642 0801
EDW974 0725 0855
LX976   0850 1018
LH566  1240 1401
AB8211 1452 1611
LH970   1631 1748
LX978   1745 1906
LH962   2040 2159
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 04:06:19 PM by apskip »

Offline apskip

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #165 on: April 12, 2013, 04:42:47 PM »
It is possible, although in my judgment unlikely, that teams may be required to use train travel to get from Zurich to Berlin. There are trains on every hour from 6am to 4pm. All require 1 or 2 changes. for the ones on the even-numbered hour, the change is typically at Hannover. For ones on odd numbers, the change is typically at Basel. One of the trains changes at Basel and Frankfurt and one at Basel and Hannover. The duration of the on-the-hour departures from Zurich varies from 8 hours 4 minutes to 8 hours 25 minutes.

If I were designing this Amazing Race leg 9, I would have teams fly.

Offline apskip

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #166 on: April 14, 2013, 10:55:47 PM »
The statement for leg 8 that teams arrived Zurich around 2pm makes it hard to back-calculate how this was done. The first flights Maun to JNB were as stated in an earlier post, 2pm and 220pm departures. I already knew that the nonstops to Zurich arrived at 0610 on Nov. 29 or at 0616 on Nov. 30, also stated in an earlier post.

That left be searching for alternate routes that would land on those dates in Zurich around 2pm and the answer to that was the null set. I tried connecting in Addis Ababa, Cairo, Munich, Frankfurt, Paris-CDG and Rome. Nothing got to Zurich at the stated time. The only one remotely close was via AMS. Here are the flights:

dep. JNB 11/28 0000+1 arr. AMS 1014+1  or dep. JNB 11/29 2358 arr. AMS 1016+1
Connections are on AMS ZRH 11/29  WA1959 1204 1324  or 11/30 1201 1322

Offline DrRox

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #167 on: April 15, 2013, 01:39:42 AM »
I have started my analysis of how teams might have gotten from Zurich to Berlin. The most obvious way is ot fly from Zurich but which airports might you fly to. Berlin has these airports:

BER Brandenburg
EDBT Allstedt
GWW Gatow (an RAF facility)
SFX Schoenfield
TWF Tempelhof
TXL Tegel


BER Brandenburg--under construction, no fligts land here at this time. Possible opening in 2014 or later.
EDBT Allstedt--no commerical flights since the 1920s when Templehof opened. A research center since then to the 1950s. Berlin's first airport, opened in 1909
GWW Gatow (an RAF facility)--Cold War British zone airfield, closed in 1995
SFX Schoenfield--East German/Soviet Berlin airfield. Operates today and will close when Brandenburg is completed. One runway will be come part of Brandenburg Airport. The Schoenfield terminal will become a German Govt. VIP terminal.
TWF Tempelhof--Cold War American zone airfield, closed in 2008.
TXL Tegel--Cold War French Zone airfield. Operates today, it will close when Brandenburg is opened. It has most of all the commerical flights into Berlin at this time.

There are only two commerical airports in Berlin at present, Tegel and Schoenfield. As apskip stated, only Tegel receives flights from Zurich. Tegel is located in north central Berlin.
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Offline maf

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #168 on: April 17, 2013, 01:07:11 AM »
That left be searching for alternate routes that would land on those dates in Zurich around 2pm and the answer to that was the null set. I tried connecting in Addis Ababa, Cairo, Munich, Frankfurt, Paris-CDG and Rome. Nothing got to Zurich at the stated time. The only one remotely close was via AMS.

How about via London.
 BA56 JNB-LHR Nov-28 20:20-05:07+1
 BA714 LHR-ZRH Nov-29 12:01-14:49 (was 0:49 late)

This combination is the most probably one I have found. It fits nicely with taking the train from Zurich at 15:40. Sure, there were two earlier flights from London in the day, but they may have been full.

Offline apskip

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #169 on: April 17, 2013, 06:04:02 AM »
maf,

As Professor Henry Higgins was fond of saying "I think you've got it." I looked at 7 different connections and reported the closest one, Amsterdam. The Nov. 29th London-Heathrow to Zurich flight does not match well with the time required for Schengen zone initial entry, finding the rail station and buying a ticket at 51 minutes in Zurich. However, the flight on Nov. 30th is almost a perfect fit with what a match with reported time on the telecast requires:

11/30 BA714 1118 1402

The UK has not joined the Schengen zone, which means that passengers from outside the zone on this itinerary would be screened for it in Zurich.

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #170 on: April 17, 2013, 10:03:34 PM »
That is some terrific detective work, maf!!!
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Offline maf

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #171 on: April 18, 2013, 06:02:19 AM »
finding the rail station and buying a ticket at 51 minutes in Zurich. However, the flight on Nov. 30th is almost a perfect fit with what a match with reported time on the telecast requires:

11/30 BA714 1118 1402

The problem with that is that we have strong indications that teams did race in Grindelwald on the 30th. Phil was spotted on that date and we see that date filmed at least once in the episode (as teams arrive at Kleine Scheidegg). This means they had to arrive in Zurich on the 29th.

So the question is if it is probable that teams managed to catch the 15.40 train when their delayed flight landed at 14:49. I believe that this is possible with a bit of luck, short immigration lines and no checked luggage.

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #172 on: April 18, 2013, 08:30:16 PM »
The problem with that is that we have strong indications that teams did race in Grindelwald on the 30th. Phil was spotted on that date and we see that date filmed at least once in the episode (as teams arrive at Kleine Scheidegg). This means they had to arrive in Zurich on the 29th.

So the question is if it is probable that teams managed to catch the 15.40 train when their delayed flight landed at 14:49. I believe that this is possible with a bit of luck, short immigration lines and no checked luggage.

Looking at Zurich arrivals on Nov 29......there was a non Shengen flight one hour before and a small non Shengan flight about 30 minutes(2:18) before that flight arrived at 2:49. I wouldn't think that there would be much of a line by the time our racers arrived. Seems to me to be plenty of time to clear immigration/customs and get a train.
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Offline apskip

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #173 on: April 21, 2013, 07:10:13 AM »
The train schedulles going up to Jungfraujoch make it clear which trains teams would have been on:

dep. Grindelwald 0947
arr. Kleine Scheidegg 1017
dep. Kleine Scheidegg 1100
arr. Jungfraujoch 1152

I have been trying to track down a schedule for stops and pickups at the Eigerwand "flag stop". I did not get off there when I visited but remember it as not a real station, just a point where passengers got off or on to view the Gletschsglacier. Here are the train schedules for afternoon from Jungfraujoch down to Grindelwald Grund station:

depart  Jungfraujoch   arrive Kleine Scheidegg   depart Kleine Scheidegg  arrive Grindelwald Grund

1200                                           1250                                  1303                               1335
1230                                           1320                                  1333                               1405 
1300                                           1350                                  1403                               1435 
1330                                           1420                                  1433                               1505
1400                                           1450                                  1503                               1535
1430                                           1520                                  1533                               1605
1500                                           1550                                  1603                               1635
1530                                           1620                                  1633                               1705

So all teams must have gotten on the first or second of these at Jungfraujoch and exited at Eigerwand minutes later. 4 teams would have reboarded the next train and arrived Grindelwald Grund. Joey/Meghan and Churck/Wynona would have been on the following train down.

When I look at the sunset for Grindelwald Nov. 29, 2011 (which I have to estimate based on a 7 minute offset from Geneva) it was at 445pm.
 
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 07:28:30 AM by apskip »

Offline DrRox

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Re: AR22 Transportation
« Reply #174 on: April 22, 2013, 09:38:24 AM »
Swiss Railroads changed their schedules about once a year in December. So the scedules were changed after TAR used the railroads in Swizterland. The earliest train leaving Grindelwald is about 6:00 am.

The telecast showed teams going to Basel from Interlaken and then from Basel to Munich.This really doesnt make much sense. That makes it an ~8 hour trip to Munich. Most of the train connections go through Mannheim, Germany. It takes about 3 hours to ride the train from Mannheim to Munich. But Mannheim is only about 30 minutes from the Frankfurt airport by train.

I need to rewatch the program and see where Phil is....I dont remember him in Dresden.
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