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Offline Neobie

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #125 on: September 07, 2012, 06:06:46 AM »
Exploring TheSchnauzers' postulation that teams could have taken a connecting flight from Moscow to Amsterdam... There are several options that fit our sightings:

SVO-AMS, arriving 0658 (scheduled 0535-0655)
DME-TXL-AMS, arriving 1037 (scheduled 0645-0725 0915-1035)
SVO-FCO-AMS, arriving 1143 (scheduled 0550-0745 0855-1130)
DME-LHR-AMS, arriving 1147 (scheduled 0655-0810 0920-1135)

SVO-AMS, arriving 1231 (scheduled 1045-1215)
VKO-IST-AMS, arriving 1334 (scheduled 0610-0755 1105-1340)
DME-ZRH-AMS, arriving 1326 (scheduled 0910-1050 1155-1330)
DME-GOT-AMS, arriving 1335 (scheduled 0920-1015 1210-1340)
SVO-ARN-AMS, arriving 1513 (scheduled 1050-1055 1310-1515)
SVO-STR-AMS, arriving 1550 (scheduled 1210-1330 1425-1550, very short connection time)
SVO-HAJ-AMS, arriving 1551 (scheduled 1145-1235 1440-1540)
DME-TXL-AMS, arriving 1551 (scheduled 1040-1125 1435-1555)
VKO-FRA-AMS, arriving 1558 (scheduled 0925-1035 1255-1405)


But the two direct flights are just sitting there, amidst all these options, neglected, unused!

« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 10:35:57 AM by Neobie »
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Offline Neobie

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #126 on: September 07, 2012, 10:51:28 AM »
Hmm... What if Central Station wasn't the first place they went to in the Netherlands, and a direct flight was actually used?

The first wave of sightings started at 12.29pm, the second started at 4.15pm. This makes a gap of 3 hours and 46 minutes.

Now let's say the first direct flight was used, leaving from Moscow SVO. Since teams will have to clear customs in Amsterdam, let's delay them a little bit, say an hour, for an adjusted arrival time of 7.58am.
The next flight arriving from Moscow SVO (and the one amongst the three blue flights I like best, because it's all on one airline, Alitaia) reaches Schiphol at 11.43am. No customs at Amsterdam, because the flight came via Rome, which is inside Schengen.

KL 902 from Moscow SVO to Amsterdam: 0533-0658 (sch. 0535-0655)
Add one hour for customs: 0658-0758

AZ 595 from Moscow SVO to Rome: 0550-0745 (sch. 0550-0745)
AZ 108 from Rome to Amsterdam: 0910-1143 (sch. 0855-1130)


The time difference between 7.58am and 11.43am is... 3 hours and 45 minutes.

Alright, there'd be a lot of give and take, so it's not that precise. How long would customs actually take? How long did the tasks between the airport and Centraal Station take? How did the train schedules work out? How long did the people using Twitter wait before posting? We'd also still need to find a way for teams to while away 4h30 before arriving at Amsterdam Centraal!
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 11:06:27 AM by Neobie »
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Online Alenaveda

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #127 on: September 07, 2012, 11:59:27 AM »
Neobie, maybe we should look for the time difference that takes to travel between Amsterdam and the places where the previous RB were located in any way to reach them.  What if the RB is the first task of the leg?

(Don't forget that RBs were the first task in legs 1-4-6-9-10-11 of the last season)
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 12:07:06 PM by Alenaveda »
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Offline Neobie

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #128 on: September 07, 2012, 01:37:54 PM »
Doesn't work if the locations are the same as last time. The eel Roadblock in Monnickendam and the pole vaulting in Ransdorp are just on the outskirts of Amsterdam, giving teams more than three hours at the task itself before they are due to arrive in Amsterdam Centraal. Groningen, on the other hand, is too far, and the quickest way there and back by train will see them arrive an hour and a half after the sightings.

The clue box outside the train station, though, seems like the first clue in a country to me. If they'd been doing tasks in the Netherlands you'd guess they would be getting direct instructions to the next location.
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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #129 on: September 07, 2012, 02:58:32 PM »
Doesn't work if the locations are the same as last time. The eel Roadblock in Monnickendam and the pole vaulting in Ransdorp are just on the outskirts of Amsterdam, giving teams more than three hours at the task itself before they are due to arrive in Amsterdam Centraal. Groningen, on the other hand, is too far, and the quickest way there and back by train will see them arrive an hour and a half after the sightings.

The clue box outside the train station, though, seems like the first clue in a country to me. If they'd been doing tasks in the Netherlands you'd guess they would be getting direct instructions to the next location.

At least, this is one option we can dismiss  :tup:.
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Offline DrRox

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #130 on: September 07, 2012, 03:57:17 PM »
Assuming that Leg 8 is a 2nd leg in/around Moscow--one of Neobie's short legs---on June 9th,2012. This would mean teams could be released from Pit Stops sometime on June 10, to head to Amsterdamn. I would think that teams were released after the 10-11 am time frame to preclude them catching the morning flights to Amserdamn. That leaves two evening flights to Amsterdamn:

SVO to AMS evening June 10,2012
KL904       1800-1919
SU2552     2055-2233

If Groningen is the destination for the clock tower RB, the last train is @ 2320. If teams, that were on the last flight, were held up in customs........they might have to wait till 0520 for the first train to Groningen. Depending on when teams are actually released from the last Moscow pit stop, the airplane flights could give us the 3 hour time differential in the arrival of teams at Amsterdam Central Train Station on June 11.

I am suggesting something like the Hiroshima/Osaka leg from TAR20. Since WRP doesnt like to film at night.....then some kind of mid leg HoO in eastern Holland. Probably for the church clock tower to open.....but if teams also got stuck at Schipol Train station.....then they could have some kind of double HoO to preserve the 3 hour time differential.......I know this doesnt make a lot of sense, but there are just a lot of variables involved. There are trains arriving at Amsterdamn Central Station that closely approximate the sightings of the TAR teams back in Amsterdamn on June 11.

The train rides from Amsterdam to Groningen and back are about 2.5 hours. So if the church clock tower opened at 9 am...one hour to complete the task, then 2.5 hours back to Amsterdam......that would put an early team into AMS at ~ 1 pm.

Anyway......I am just sort of thinking out loud......so feel free to shoot down this idea.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 04:03:23 PM by DrRox »
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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #131 on: September 07, 2012, 04:18:52 PM »
Assuming that Leg 8 is a 2nd leg in/around Moscow--one of Neobie's short legs---on June 9th,2012. This would mean teams could be released from Pit Stops sometime on June 10, to head to Amsterdamn. I would think that teams were released after the 10-11 am time frame to preclude them catching the morning flights to Amserdamn. That leaves two evening flights to Amsterdamn:

SVO to AMS evening June 10,2012
KL904       1800-1919
SU2552     2055-2233

If Groningen is the destination for the clock tower RB, the last train is @ 2320. If teams, that were on the last flight, were held up in customs........they might have to wait till 0520 for the first train to Groningen. Depending on when teams are actually released from the last Moscow pit stop, the airplane flights could give us the 3 hour time differential in the arrival of teams at Amsterdam Central Train Station on June 11.

I am suggesting something like the Hiroshima/Osaka leg from TAR20. Since WRP doesnt like to film at night.....then some kind of mid leg HoO in eastern Holland. Probably for the church clock tower to open.....but if teams also got stuck at Schipol Train station.....then they could have some kind of double HoO to preserve the 3 hour time differential.......I know this doesnt make a lot of sense, but there are just a lot of variables involved. There are trains arriving at Amsterdamn Central Station that closely approximate the sightings of the TAR teams back in Amsterdamn on June 11.

The train rides from Amsterdam to Groningen and back are about 2.5 hours. So if the church clock tower opened at 9 am...one hour to complete the task, then 2.5 hours back to Amsterdam......that would put an early team into AMS at ~ 1 pm.

Anyway......I am just sort of thinking out loud......so feel free to shoot down this idea.

According to this page below, the HoO of the Martinitoren from April to October is from 11.00am to 17.00pm.. But the tower also opens for guided tours from 09.00-11.00am. and 17.00-20.00pm..  I rembember that in TAR15 we didn't see people in the tower at the moment of the RB, so we can assume that it was performed in the hours of the guided tours. The most probable scenario is - if they repeat that RB - that it had happened on the same time period.

http://www.martinistad.nl/groningen/martinitoren/

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Offline DrRox

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #132 on: September 07, 2012, 06:49:12 PM »
If in fact that the clock tower is the switchback roadblock in TAR 21........I have absolutely no doubt that it would be closed to the public on that day. Rented out by WRP for exclusive use. And that WRP would set their own HoO.....depending on their own objectives.
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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #133 on: September 07, 2012, 11:20:01 PM »
I agree with DrRox 100% on this. It wouldn't make sense NOT to rent it out.
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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #134 on: September 08, 2012, 01:08:13 AM »
Alenaveda's comment was very good. She did some research to see if my hypothesis would work. My hypothesis is highly speculative. I actually started thinking about it from some comments made by Neobie up above. He showed how the morning flights were not compatible with the time frame of teams spotted in Ams Central.....

Anyway....anyone/everyone come up with some ideas and try to make your ideas fit the few facts we do know......Maybe we can colectively find the solution!!!!
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Offline theschnauzers

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #135 on: September 08, 2012, 02:04:41 AM »
There are always three factors that I find need to be repeated as necessary in trying to figure out a timeline on incomplete confirmed information.

First, as I noted before, is the use of connecting and not direct flights, for various reasons; second, that you have to account for production's need to get Phil ahead of the teams to the next country or region; and third, pit stops can be any length of time the production needs to move the Race along and still get Phil and the Racers where their route needs them to be. Hence, we need to avoid assuming that pit stops are intended to be 12 hours; the reality is that they are rarely 12 hours anymore.
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Offline Neobie

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #136 on: September 08, 2012, 06:43:40 AM »
Knowing that there is no country in between Russia and the Netherlands, and assuming the Netherlands isn't Leg 8 (where the gap between the two waves is unlikely to arise)...

1. Connecting Flights
This flight combination makes sense, on the morning of the 11 Jun, if we accept that Amsterdam Centraal was not the first destination in the country and teams spent four and a half hours between the airport and the train station:
KL 902 from Moscow SVO to Amsterdam: 0533-0658 (sch. 0535-0655)
AZ 595 from Moscow SVO to Rome: 0550-0745 (sch. 0550-0745)
AZ 108 from Rome to Amsterdam: 0910-1143 (sch. 0855-1130)
These are the first two routes out of Moscow SVO to Amsterdam, so a Pit Start after 8pm on 10 Jun would cluster the teams on these two combinations. There is an alternative via Berlin on airberlin/KLM arriving 10.37am, but that leaves from Moscow DME.

2. Phil and Production
If Leg 8 took place in Russia, it would have taken place on the 9th, giving Phil plenty of time for a night flight out or even the same KL 902 a day ahead of the teams, on 10 Jun.

3. Pit Stops
Absolutely agree with TheSchnauzers. In recent seasons (stretching back to Season 13), they're almost always longer than 12 hours, with the exception of the last leg, which is often shorter than 12 hours. Here's the list from TAR 20:
13h, 15h, 20h, 19h, 19h, 36h, 15h, 34h, 21h, 29h, 3h.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 06:50:16 AM by Neobie »
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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #137 on: September 08, 2012, 08:48:34 AM »
I'm gonna ask all of you about this, because of your experiencie in this stuff:  is there a chance that teams fly to Eelde Airport on Groningen from Moscow? You know, Martinitoren (if it's the chosen RB for the switchback) is only 20-25 minutes distance from the airport, and - as DrRox stated previously - the train ride to Amsterdam is about 2.5 hours, that could easily give us the 3.46 hours window that Neobie suggests.

(Once again, I'm only dismissing options).

(BTW, DrRox, if you were referring to me in your last post, the "she" is a "he"  :lol:)
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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #138 on: September 08, 2012, 08:54:36 AM »
I'm gonna ask all of you about this, because of your experiencie in this stuff:  is there a chance that teams fly to Eelde Airport on Groningen from Moscow? You know, Martinitoren (if it's the chosen RB for the switchback) is only 20-25 minutes distance from the airport, and - as DrRox stated previously - the train ride to Amsterdam is about 2.5 hours, that could easily give us the 3.46 hours window that Neobie suggests.

(Once again, I'm only dismissing options).

(BTW, DrRox, if you were referring to me in your last post, the "she" is a "he"  :lol:)
No. I live close by this Airport (quarter minute drive) and it is only used for summer destinations. Almost everyone who is flying elsewhere in the Netherlands, goes to Schiphol (I go to Schiphol too if I have to fly). I would find it highly unlikely to fly in via Eelde.

Also, I can't set my mind to the fact that they would visit Groningen again. It isn't that pretty, I go there only to shop. There are definitly way more cooler cities in the Netherlands.

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #139 on: September 08, 2012, 09:01:13 AM »
I'm gonna ask all of you about this, because of your experiencie in this stuff:  is there a chance that teams fly to Eelde Airport on Groningen from Moscow? You know, Martinitoren (if it's the chosen RB for the switchback) is only 20-25 minutes distance from the airport, and - as DrRox stated previously - the train ride to Amsterdam is about 2.5 hours, that could easily give us the 3.46 hours window that Neobie suggests.

(Once again, I'm only dismissing options).

(BTW, DrRox, if you were referring to me in your last post, the "she" is a "he"  :lol:)
No. I live close by this Airport (quarter minute drive) and it is only used for summer destinations. Almost everyone who is flying elsewhere in the Netherlands, goes to Schiphol (I go to Schiphol too if I have to fly). I would find it highly unlikely to fly in via Eelde.

Also, I can't set my mind to the fact that they would visit Groningen again. It isn't that pretty, I go there only to shop. There are definitly way more cooler cities in the Netherlands.

Because Groningen, Monnickendam and Ransdorp were the locations of the RBs in the previous visits to the Netherlands (and it was announced that there was a switchback RB on this season's leg).
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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #140 on: September 08, 2012, 09:05:37 AM »
Yeah, but Monickendam and Ransdorp are municipalities of Amsterdam and Groningen isn't.

Offline DrRox

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #141 on: September 08, 2012, 09:25:52 AM »
addie.......

We dont know really where they went. We just try to figure out, from the clues we have, what possibly happened. Since you live there, you are in a unique positon to do some legwork and maybe find out if that clock tower was closed on the possible dates. They might even tell you if they filmed and American TV show there this past June. Maybe they wont tell you.....but then again maybe someone else in that village will remember. If it was used, it would have been on June 10 and June 11 that the crews were there.

If you find out that they were not there.....then we can concentrate on the areas near Amsterdam.
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Offline apskip

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #142 on: September 08, 2012, 11:56:41 AM »
All this talk of connecting flights Moscow to Amsterdam is nonsense. There are two morning nonstops (including on June 11):

KL902 0535 0655 SVO AMS
SU2550 1045 1225 SVO AMS

There are no nonstops from Domodedovo to Amsterdam

It takes about a half hour to get out of Schiphol Airport and the train to Amsterdam-Central takes 15 to 30 minutes depending on exactly when teams arrive there. That means that there was a substantial gap until the times of the sightings. What was done to fill that gap? It definitely was not a trip to Groningen to count the bells in the Martintouren.


Added 11/29/12 - To be completely fair, my guess that only the nonstops made sense was way off base. Only 1 of 5 teams actually got one of those nonstops and 4 took connecting flights (although 2 of those had no access to the morning nonstops due to later start times).
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 09:05:17 PM by apskip »

addie

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #143 on: September 08, 2012, 01:29:26 PM »
addie.......

We dont know really where they went. We just try to figure out, from the clues we have, what possibly happened. Since you live there, you are in a unique positon to do some legwork and maybe find out if that clock tower was closed on the possible dates. They might even tell you if they filmed and American TV show there this past June. Maybe they wont tell you.....but then again maybe someone else in that village will remember. If it was used, it would have been on June 10 and June 11 that the crews were there.

If you find out that they were not there.....then we can concentrate on the areas near Amsterdam.
I have send a Dutch mail to the Martinitoren.

Offline DrRox

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #144 on: September 08, 2012, 03:07:32 PM »
Thanks addie for taking the time to help out!!!
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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #145 on: October 02, 2012, 12:34:46 PM »
For those who believe that you have to connect in Barcelona or Madrid to get to Mallorca from Amsterdam, that is incorrect. Here is today's morning flight:

Transavia 5629 AMS PMI 0632 0856

There is also an evening flight which might have been used last night:

Vueling 2902 AMS PMI 1905 2134

I like that Alenaveda! Now...how are they going to get there? Scheduled ferry? Charter boats? Should be scenic!

Just as a data, between both places there's a four hours trip, including ferry.

I was talking about Bellver and Formentero; but the route is through Ibiza Island.
You can travel either by ferry or plane.  Iberia has flights all the day between PMI-IBZ, and it takes only 35 minutes.  Let me do a little research, and I'll post it in the transportation thread.


Ok, Peach, this is what I found:

Ferry:  Baleária has a morning service between Palma and Ibiza, who departs at 8.00am and arrives at 10.00am..  It only fits if - according to apskip research - teams travels on the second flight and face an HoO (that it would also consistant with the tweet of the crew member saying he had to wake up early morning to be part of a task on TAR, and later erase from his personal account, remember?).

Flights:  Iberia has flight the whole day:

Iberia   IB8102   PMI-IBZ  07.30   08.05

Iberia   IB8104   PMI-IBZ  08.40   09.15

Iberia   IB8112   PMI-IBZ  09.30   10.05

Iberia   IB8106   PMI-IBZ  10.20   10.55

Iberia   IB8110   PMI-IBZ  11.50   12.25

Iberia   IB8116  PMI-IBZ   12.50   13.25

Iberia   IB8122  PMI-IBZ   13.20   13.55

The other flights depart in the late evening.  But there's also a flight from Air Berlin:

AirBerlin   AB7502   PMI-IBZ   1505   15.40


« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 11:00:12 AM by Alenaveda »
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Offline apskip

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #146 on: October 02, 2012, 01:32:37 PM »
If Alanevada's hypothesis is correct, there are 10 daily/evening flights from Ibiza to Barcelona. These take about 45 minutes. For a flight that connects well in Barcelona with the Night Talgo Train to France, the last two flights possible are:

IB5419 IBZ BCN 1650 1732
FR8037 IBZ BCN 1725 1818

Offline georgiapeach

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #147 on: October 02, 2012, 02:04:58 PM »
There are multiple 20 min ferries Ibiza to Formentera too (jic)
http://www.directferries.co.uk/formentera_ferry.htm

And Ibiza>>Palma ferries too.

AND Ibiza to Barcelona ferries.
http://www.directferries.co.uk/ibiza_ferry.htm
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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #148 on: October 02, 2012, 02:12:03 PM »
One other thing about this hypothesis.  Baleária has ferries for the route Ibiza-Formentera and back. The first ferry from Ibiza departs at 7.00am, and then at 8.01/10.31/12.00/13.01/16.01/17.30/21.31; and from Formentera, at 07.01/08.30/09.16/11.31/13.00/15.01/18.30/19.31.  The travel takes only 30 minutes.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 11:00:40 AM by Alenaveda »
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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #149 on: October 02, 2012, 02:27:28 PM »
There are multiple 20 min ferries Ibiza to Formentera too (jic)
http://www.directferries.co.uk/formentera_ferry.htm

And Ibiza>>Palma ferries too.

AND Ibiza to Barcelona ferries.
http://www.directferries.co.uk/ibiza_ferry.htm

All the ferries from Ibiza to Barcelona departs at 11.00am., both Baleária and Transmediterránea, and arrives at Barcelona at 9.00pm (Baleária) and 8.00pm. (Transmediterránea).

And from Ibiza to Palma, departs at 8.00pm. and arrives at 10.00pm., only by Baleária.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 11:01:10 AM by Alenaveda »
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