Author Topic: AR21 Transportation  (Read 40160 times)

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Offline ianthebalance

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #100 on: September 04, 2012, 01:30:33 PM »
Just putting it out there, but i think it is possible for Tar to have taken the bus or train from Moscow to Riga.

I was thinking this too. We really think alike :lol:.

Offline apskip

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #101 on: September 04, 2012, 03:10:01 PM »
It is 525 miles from Moscow to Riga. I think that's at the edge of what is doable by bus or train.


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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #102 on: September 04, 2012, 05:15:18 PM »
We already have 9 countries. :)
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Offline supah

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #103 on: September 04, 2012, 05:20:03 PM »
Is there a boat/ferry that teams could have taken from Palma to Barcelona instead of flying???

Offline ianthebalance

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #104 on: September 04, 2012, 06:12:25 PM »
We already have 9 countries. :)

Again, WRP leaves out USA or charter/marked car/random pit stop countries sometimes. Its obviously not the latter this season, so they could of just left out the USA when they said "9 countries". I would be really surprised if there wasn't a new country in leg 8.


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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #105 on: September 04, 2012, 07:48:03 PM »
Just putting it out there, but i think it is possible for Tar to have taken the bus or train from Moscow to Riga.

I was thinking this too. We really think alike :lol:.

Put aside the country count for a minute. Looking at the history of WRP in Russia, the chances of TAR leaving Russia by ground transportation are infinitesimal. Possible but highly improbable. If they did in fact go to Riga, they most certainly flew. In every other instance that TAR has gone to Russia, they have left from exactly the same airport they entered. There is one exception and that is TAR 13. TAR entered Moscow at SJO and left Moscow at DOM. So the extremely high odds are that TAR left by air.
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Offline walkingpneumonia

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #106 on: September 04, 2012, 08:30:55 PM »
The question of how to get between Coney Island and Lombardi's Pizza has been carefully analyzed.  I cannot imagine Amazing Racers doing anything but take the New York City subway, as it is far faster than any alternate form of transportation. There are four subway lines at Coney Island (D, F, D, Q) and all go to Manhattan and make a stop at Canal St. That is a small bit south of but about equidistant from two different stations titled Prince. The Canal St. station is a short walk to 32 Prince St. where Lombardi's Pizza is located.

Have we ever had a final episode where teams took public transportation (i.e. subway, bus) in the final city? I can't recall if they did in TAR 10?
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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #107 on: September 04, 2012, 08:43:10 PM »
The question of how to get between Coney Island and Lombardi's Pizza has been carefully analyzed.  I cannot imagine Amazing Racers doing anything but take the New York City subway, as it is far faster than any alternate form of transportation. There are four subway lines at Coney Island (D, F, D, Q) and all go to Manhattan and make a stop at Canal St. That is a small bit south of but about equidistant from two different stations titled Prince. The Canal St. station is a short walk to 32 Prince St. where Lombardi's Pizza is located.

Have we ever had a final episode where teams took public transportation (i.e. subway, bus) in the final city? I can't recall if they did in TAR 10?

If I remember correctly, TAR 10 was a lot of walking, with a long taxi ride to the Finish Line.

I am pretty sure public transport has been used in the final city other than in TAR 6, when teams took the metro from O'Hare to Downtown Chicago.

Offline DrRox

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #108 on: September 04, 2012, 09:07:08 PM »
TAR 1 had to take the elevated train to the park in Flushing, next to Shea Stadium.
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Offline theschnauzers

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #109 on: September 04, 2012, 11:20:15 PM »
There are only a handful of cities with extensive mass transit rail systems, and of the final cities for TAR, only Chicago, New York, Miami, and Atlanta have any connecting the airport to the central core; and of those Miami's didn't open until the other week (literally).

The only one besides New York and Chicago then that they could have used was Atlanta, but the finish line location (Swan House) is about a mile from the nearest MARTA rail station in Buckhead. But, in theory, they could have done it there.
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Offline Neobie

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #110 on: September 05, 2012, 11:58:55 AM »
Does anyone have timings for the sightings in Amsterdam, especially at Central Station? I managed to snag @SNKRFRK's tweet at 12.29pm local time, but I don't have an Instagram account so I'm not sure if you can get times off the photos.

But if teams were spotted just past noon, it seems like they wouldn't have just got off a plane from Moscow. The direct flights from Moscow to Amsterdam are 0535-0655 and 1045-1215 (actual arrival 1231), meaning the times don't jive with an arrival at Schiphol at 11am-noon. Connecting flights might work, but it means teams were risking very tight connection times (an hour or so) to make it on a flight to Amsterdam.

This opens up the possibility for other places for Leg 8! But neither St Petersburg nor the Baltic states work for these timings. It'd help a lot if we knew exactly when teams were at Central Station!
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Offline DrRox

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #111 on: September 05, 2012, 01:03:02 PM »
A sighting from somewhere in Europe (Amsterdam?).

Good Luck ‏@goodlucklive
Just seen a crew from the amazing race USA zoom passed us - they asked us for directions we were like "sorry" hahahaha
4:00 AM - 11 Jun 12 via Twitter for iPhone


Good Luck is a band from Capetown, South Africa, but they appear to be touring Europe. One of their tweets suggests they may have been in the Ukraine a couple of days ago and another yesterday says they are Amsterdam bound. Their webpage says they have a couple of appearances in Amsterdam late this week.

I've asked for more details.


This is the first sighting on June 11th. @ 1000. I thought at first it was at Schipol. But in reading back at the twit history of this person, I realized that they had arrived in Amsterdam from the Ukraine, the day/night before. Then I thought maybe they had been on the train going into Amsterdam Central......but in the end i just think they were doing a walking tour of central Amsterdam......I thought maybe there were two waves of racers.........the ones these guys saw at 1000 and the second wave later......It made me think that teams took trains into Amsterdam from some outlying station and the time gap between trains was about 2 hours.
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Offline apskip

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #112 on: September 05, 2012, 07:12:06 PM »
Trains leave Schiphol Airport for Amsterdam Centraal station all morning, afternoon and evening with a frequency of every 15 to 20 minutes. Th trip takes about 15 minutes.

Schiphol would also surely be the "outlying station" you refer to, Dr. Rox. It could be other large cities in the Netherlands such as Rotterdam/The Hague, Eindhoven or Groningen. However. few if any of them have any direct flights from Eastern Europe. 

Offline Neobie

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #113 on: September 05, 2012, 08:48:20 PM »
The GoodLuckLive tweet shows up on my computer as 11 Jun 7.00pm... Since I'm running on GMT+8, I'm thinking perhaps they saw the racers at 1pm Amsterdam time, and Plaidmoon's computer was running 9 hours behind, on Pacific Summer Time?

I guess now we have to plot out all the sightings in Amsterdam (especially arrivals at Central Station), then see if it leads us to two distinct waves - and that would be very useful to deduce where they came from! (But I dread having to scroll through multiple Twitter accounts to get back to 11 Jun... some people are quite... chatty.)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 09:26:09 PM by Neobie »
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Offline DrRox

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #114 on: September 05, 2012, 09:47:19 PM »
Trains leave Schiphol Airport for Amsterdam Centraal station all morning, afternoon and evening with a frequency of every 15 to 20 minutes. Th trip takes about 15 minutes.

Schiphol would also surely be the "outlying station" you refer to, Dr. Rox. It could be other large cities in the Netherlands such as Rotterdam/The Hague, Eindhoven or Groningen. However. few if any of them have any direct flights from Eastern Europe.

apskip....I think you have been smokin some bad caca tonight. Schipol is not an outlying station. For gods sake it, is in an Amsterdam surburb as you well know. No, you have no idea what my outlying station is......simpley because I dont know what it is..........so maybe you should stop trying to intrepret other people's ideas and stick to your own.....as wrong as they are most of the time.
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Offline Plaidmoon

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #115 on: September 06, 2012, 04:27:44 AM »
The GoodLuckLive tweet shows up on my computer as 11 Jun 7.00pm... Since I'm running on GMT+8, I'm thinking perhaps they saw the racers at 1pm Amsterdam time, and Plaidmoon's computer was running 9 hours behind, on Pacific Summer Time?

I guess now we have to plot out all the sightings in Amsterdam (especially arrivals at Central Station), then see if it leads us to two distinct waves - and that would be very useful to deduce where they came from! (But I dread having to scroll through multiple Twitter accounts to get back to 11 Jun... some people are quite... chatty.)

Neobie, I think you have it about right. I am in the Pacific Time Zone (GMT-8) and Amsterdam is at (GMT+1) so I would be 9 hours behind at least from November through the spring. At the time of the sighting, we were on Daylight Savings Time and the clock was moved ahead 1 hour in my time zone. Unless Amsterdam does something similar, I think I would have been 8 hours behind Amsterdam and the time of the tweet would have been at noon Amsterdam time.

It had occurred to me that posting tweets with the tweet time in my time zone might eventually cause some confusion but I didn't do anything about changing my posting practices. Although it will complicate things somewhat, I'll try to remember to use some kind of time reference that will be easier to use. Maybe the local time for the person posting the tweet would be better.

Offline Neobie

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #116 on: September 06, 2012, 09:19:19 AM »
No worries Plaidmoon! Amsterdam does Daylights Saving too.

DrRox was right, teams did seem to arrive in two waves. Here are the tweets the times of which I managed to find (can't find the Facebook sightings lost in the depths of time, nor the one with a picture of the twins):
12.29pm
"So cool! The #AmazingRace is filming at Central Station in Amsterdam as one of their stops." - SNKRFRK
1.00pm
"Just seen a crew from the amazing race USA zoom passed us - they asked us for directions we were like "sorry" hahahaha" - goodlucklive
4.15pm
"Spotted an Amazing Race checkpoint box right in front of the station o_o what if i steal a ticket~" - zerachel
4.25pm
"UWOO 2 guys using similar shirts+backpacks just walked by the cafe..AND I thnk one carried an AA (sic, "AR") ticket!!!" - zerachel
4.26pm
"At Restaurant De Roode Leeuw Brasserie, Amsterdam~ chilling while eating bitterballen :3" - zerachel
5.15pm
"So the Amazing Race has just been spotted in Amsterdam! Good luck team!" - toryalmond, with Josh/Brent and Abbie/Ryan
5.56pm
"An Amazing Race team literally ran into us in Amsterdam today #mylifeiscomplete" - mpetroff



We'll tackle this in two parts. First let's consider the possibility that they just touched down in Schiphol and took the train downtown. Working backwards on the trains, that means they left the airport at 12.09pm and 3.59pm latest. Taking a minimum of ten minutes to disembark and get to the trains at Schiphol, that means we are looking for flights landing no later than 11.59am and 3.49pm respectively.

This doesn't jive with any of these cities close enough to Moscow to warrant just a one-day leg:
Moscow (arriving 6.58am, 12.31pm)
St Petersburg (arriving 8.53am, 7.35pm)
Tallinn (arriving 8.56am, 7.48pm)
Riga (arriving 1.00pm, 7.05pm)

At this juncture, I'd take a leap and say that Leg 8 is neither in Russia nor in the Netherlands. (Fingers crossed!) For the former, flights just don't arrive at the right times. For the latter, trains from anywhere in the Netherlands to Amsterdam should be frequent, at the slowest two an hour in the daytime. Unless there were other semi-bunching mechanisms in place or unless there were unseen racers arriving at other times, we shouldn't be seeing two distinct waves of racers, arriving almost four hours apart.

Ignoring connecting flights, here are the cities with pairs of flights arriving at the appropriate times:
Zurich, Bucharest, Gothenburg, Bremen, Nuremburg, Paris, Munich, Milan, Stavanger, Rome, Frankfurt, Stockholm
But if we take away the cities with alternative flights in between the pairs, we're left with:
Bucharest, Bremen, Nuremburg, Stockholm
I don't think Bremen and Nuremburg are the kind of city (or at least airport!) TPTB likes to use, and Bremen's close enough to the Netherlands that a train might have been better for production. So going by this, good suspects look like Bucharest and Stockholm.

But wait! Notice the list of cities close to Moscow? It doesn't include Vilnius in Lithuania; Vilnius doesn't have direct flights to Amsterdam on 11 Jun. But when you consider the quickest ways to get from one to the other, you get:
Vilnius via Frankfurt to Amsterdam, arriving 9.49am (scheduled 0600-0715, 0855-1005)
Flight via Prague scheduled 0525-0605, 0910-1045 (Frankfurt is preferable)
Flight via Moscow SVO scheduled 0540-0805, 1105-1215 (Frankfurt is preferable)
Vilnius via Copenhagen to Amsterdam, arriving 11.27am (scheduled 0640-0710, 1010-1135)
Vilnius via Kiev to Amsterdam, arriving 11.44am (scheduled 0705-0835, 0940-1135)

Vilnius via Helsinki to Amsterdam, arriving 3.21pm (scheduled 1145-1255, 1400-1530)
Vilnius via Bremen to Amsterdam, scheduled 1010-1100, 1500-1600 (Helsinki is preferable)
Which makes Vilnius a good candidate as well.

What about the train option? I'm not sure how to approach this problem. You guys have a clue?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 10:39:49 AM by Neobie »
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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #117 on: September 06, 2012, 11:39:14 AM »
No worries Plaidmoon! Amsterdam does Daylights Saving too.

DrRox was right, teams did seem to arrive in two waves. Here are the tweets the times of which I managed to find (can't find the Facebook sightings lost in the depths of time, nor the one with a picture of the twins):
12.29pm
"So cool! The #AmazingRace is filming at Central Station in Amsterdam as one of their stops." - SNKRFRK
1.00pm
"Just seen a crew from the amazing race USA zoom passed us - they asked us for directions we were like "sorry" hahahaha" - goodlucklive
4.15pm
"Spotted an Amazing Race checkpoint box right in front of the station o_o what if i steal a ticket~" - zerachel
4.25pm
"UWOO 2 guys using similar shirts+backpacks just walked by the cafe..AND I thnk one carried an AA (sic, "AR") ticket!!!" - zerachel
4.26pm
"At Restaurant De Roode Leeuw Brasserie, Amsterdam~ chilling while eating bitterballen :3" - zerachel
5.15pm
"So the Amazing Race has just been spotted in Amsterdam! Good luck team!" - toryalmond, with Josh/Brent and Abbie/Ryan
5.56pm
"An Amazing Race team literally ran into us in Amsterdam today #mylifeiscomplete" - mpetroff



We'll tackle this in two parts. First let's consider the possibility that they just touched down in Schiphol and took the train downtown. Working backwards on the trains, that means they left the airport at 12.09pm and 3.59pm latest. Taking a minimum of ten minutes to disembark and get to the trains at Schiphol, that means we are looking for flights landing no later than 11.59am and 3.49pm respectively.

This doesn't jive with any of these cities close enough to Moscow to warrant just a one-day leg:
Moscow (arriving 6.58am, 12.31pm)
St Petersburg (arriving 8.53am, 7.35pm)
Tallinn (arriving 8.56am, 7.48pm)
Riga (arriving 1.00pm, 7.05pm)

At this juncture, I'd take a leap and say that Leg 8 is neither in Russia nor in the Netherlands. (Fingers crossed!) For the former, flights just don't arrive at the right times. For the latter, trains from anywhere in the Netherlands to Amsterdam should be frequent, at the slowest two an hour in the daytime. Unless there were other semi-bunching mechanisms in place or unless there were unseen racers arriving at other times, we shouldn't be seeing two distinct waves of racers, arriving almost four hours apart.

Ignoring connecting flights, here are the cities with pairs of flights arriving at the appropriate times:
Zurich, Bucharest, Gothenburg, Bremen, Nuremburg, Paris, Munich, Milan, Stavanger, Rome, Frankfurt, Stockholm
But if we take away the cities with alternative flights in between the pairs, we're left with:
Bucharest, Bremen, Nuremburg, Stockholm
I don't think Bremen and Nuremburg are the kind of city (or at least airport!) TPTB likes to use, and Bremen's close enough to the Netherlands that a train might have been better for production. So going by this, good suspects look like Bucharest and Stockholm.

But wait! Notice the list of cities close to Moscow? It doesn't include Vilnius in Lithuania; Vilnius doesn't have direct flights to Amsterdam on 11 Jun. But when you consider the quickest ways to get from one to the other, you get:
Vilnius via Frankfurt to Amsterdam, arriving 9.49am (scheduled 0600-0715, 0855-1005)
Flight via Prague scheduled 0525-0605, 0910-1045 (Frankfurt is preferable)
Flight via Moscow SVO scheduled 0540-0805, 1105-1215 (Frankfurt is preferable)
Vilnius via Copenhagen to Amsterdam, arriving 11.27am (scheduled 0640-0710, 1010-1135)
Vilnius via Kiev to Amsterdam, arriving 11.44am (scheduled 0705-0835, 0940-1135)

Vilnius via Helsinki to Amsterdam, arriving 3.21pm (scheduled 1145-1255, 1400-1530)
Vilnius via Bremen to Amsterdam, scheduled 1010-1100, 1500-1600 (Helsinki is preferable)
Which makes Vilnius a good candidate as well.

What about the train option? I'm not sure how to approach this problem. You guys have a clue?

By now, I can only find services between Vilnius and Moscow, but the info is all in lithuanian.  So reading only the time schedules this what we have (assuming a short PS on June 9):

TRAIN         DEP         ARR         DISTANCE (KM)             TRIP TIME
G6/T        16:55        08:58             943                        14:58
G30/Ч        17:45        09:27             943                        14:42
G148/Ч        22:36        15:21             943                        15:45


The thing is that there are a dialy service between Moscow and Amsterdam.

Dep.         Arr.                   Distance (Km)         Trip Time
23.44       09.59                      2.596                  36:15

IDK if this fits somehow, but here's the info I found.

(I took June 9 based on your Post on the Timeline thread just as a guide)


« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 11:42:41 AM by Alenaveda »
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Offline theschnauzers

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #118 on: September 06, 2012, 02:01:02 PM »
The only way teams could have disembarked on flights and made it to the center of Amsterdam that quickly is if they clear customs into the EU elsewhere.

There's also the possibility of a connecting flight out of Moscow and landing in Amsterdam, and that would still leave open the possibility of leg 8 being in either Russia or the Netherlands.
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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #119 on: September 06, 2012, 08:03:49 PM »
Sorry, never mind!
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 08:16:30 PM by Neobie »
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Offline maf

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #120 on: September 07, 2012, 01:12:23 AM »
The only way teams could have disembarked on flights and made it to the center of Amsterdam that quickly is if they clear customs into the EU elsewhere.

You mean like Copenhagen or Helsinki?

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #121 on: September 07, 2012, 01:47:29 AM »
The only way teams could have disembarked on flights and made it to the center of Amsterdam that quickly is if they clear customs into the EU elsewhere.

You mean like Copenhagen or Helsinki?

Well sort of like the EU. It is really the Schengen Agreement Area. It includes all of the EU and also some other countries that are not members of the EU, ie Norway, iceland, Switzerland and Liechtenstein. The UK and Ireland are members of the EU, but not members of the Schengen Area. I hope that makes sense.

Lithuania is a member of both the EU and Schengen Agreement, so there are no passport controls between Lithuania and Holland.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 09:11:54 AM by DrRox »
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Offline Neobie

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #122 on: September 07, 2012, 06:06:46 AM »
Exploring TheSchnauzers' postulation that teams could have taken a connecting flight from Moscow to Amsterdam... There are several options that fit our sightings:

SVO-AMS, arriving 0658 (scheduled 0535-0655)
DME-TXL-AMS, arriving 1037 (scheduled 0645-0725 0915-1035)
SVO-FCO-AMS, arriving 1143 (scheduled 0550-0745 0855-1130)
DME-LHR-AMS, arriving 1147 (scheduled 0655-0810 0920-1135)

SVO-AMS, arriving 1231 (scheduled 1045-1215)
VKO-IST-AMS, arriving 1334 (scheduled 0610-0755 1105-1340)
DME-ZRH-AMS, arriving 1326 (scheduled 0910-1050 1155-1330)
DME-GOT-AMS, arriving 1335 (scheduled 0920-1015 1210-1340)
SVO-ARN-AMS, arriving 1513 (scheduled 1050-1055 1310-1515)
SVO-STR-AMS, arriving 1550 (scheduled 1210-1330 1425-1550, very short connection time)
SVO-HAJ-AMS, arriving 1551 (scheduled 1145-1235 1440-1540)
DME-TXL-AMS, arriving 1551 (scheduled 1040-1125 1435-1555)
VKO-FRA-AMS, arriving 1558 (scheduled 0925-1035 1255-1405)


But the two direct flights are just sitting there, amidst all these options, neglected, unused!

« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 10:35:57 AM by Neobie »
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Offline Neobie

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #123 on: September 07, 2012, 10:51:28 AM »
Hmm... What if Central Station wasn't the first place they went to in the Netherlands, and a direct flight was actually used?

The first wave of sightings started at 12.29pm, the second started at 4.15pm. This makes a gap of 3 hours and 46 minutes.

Now let's say the first direct flight was used, leaving from Moscow SVO. Since teams will have to clear customs in Amsterdam, let's delay them a little bit, say an hour, for an adjusted arrival time of 7.58am.
The next flight arriving from Moscow SVO (and the one amongst the three blue flights I like best, because it's all on one airline, Alitaia) reaches Schiphol at 11.43am. No customs at Amsterdam, because the flight came via Rome, which is inside Schengen.

KL 902 from Moscow SVO to Amsterdam: 0533-0658 (sch. 0535-0655)
Add one hour for customs: 0658-0758

AZ 595 from Moscow SVO to Rome: 0550-0745 (sch. 0550-0745)
AZ 108 from Rome to Amsterdam: 0910-1143 (sch. 0855-1130)


The time difference between 7.58am and 11.43am is... 3 hours and 45 minutes.

Alright, there'd be a lot of give and take, so it's not that precise. How long would customs actually take? How long did the tasks between the airport and Centraal Station take? How did the train schedules work out? How long did the people using Twitter wait before posting? We'd also still need to find a way for teams to while away 4h30 before arriving at Amsterdam Centraal!
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 11:06:27 AM by Neobie »
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Online Alenaveda

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Re: AR21 Transportation
« Reply #124 on: September 07, 2012, 11:59:27 AM »
Neobie, maybe we should look for the time difference that takes to travel between Amsterdam and the places where the previous RB were located in any way to reach them.  What if the RB is the first task of the leg?

(Don't forget that RBs were the first task in legs 1-4-6-9-10-11 of the last season)
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 12:07:06 PM by Alenaveda »
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