Topic: TAR20 Leg 11: Best showcasing of Japan ever?

[kenchan]

I'm Japanese, so I felt compelled to bring up this topic:

Did you guys thing TAR20 Leg 11 showcased Japan in the best possible way?


I happen to think so, because within 1 episode, the teams got to see and experience:
* The BEAUTY of Japan: Miyajima Itsukushima Jinja shrine - it's just gorgeous
* The TRAGEDY of Japan: Atomic Bomb Dome in Hiroshima
* The TECHNOLOGY of Japan: Shinkansen 700 series (with the long nose) from Hiroshima --> Shin Osaka
* The COMEDY of Japan: Those silly TV gameshows!
* The CUISINE of Japan: Sushi (sans Wasabi bombs this time...)
* The HISTORY of Japan: Osaka Castle (the stronghold of shogun Toyotomi, who arguably played a key cultural and political role in the unification of Japan in the 16th/17th century)
 
Past seasons (9, 12, 15, 18) have also showcased many of these aspects, but not all in a single episode. 

It was also interesting to hear some of the teams (BBRachel, Army Dave) talk about their thoughts on Hiroshima.   This would also be an intersting topic to discuss. 
(I personally felt it was very appropriate that Phil, having come from a WWII-participating nation that didn't have a prominent role as Japan or the US did, gave the commentary about what happened on Aug 6, 1945.)


Thoughts?

[Jimmer]

I felt like it was a good leg!
I wish they would have spent more time at Hiroshima! 

[starrynight]

I didn't want more preaching at Hiroshima, it always feels at those points that racers are reading from a script.  I think anyone with much of a brain realises the tragedy at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, so I don't need to be spoken to like I'm an ignorant child there.  The gameshow thing was alright and pretty funny.  But I really don't think you can realistically get to know a country just by watching an episode in this entertainment show, just take it for what it is..light entertainment.

[choroneko]

It wasn't really that great to me. Though, I was touched they paid respects and took a moment in the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Park.
I'd be more impressed if they just stayed in Hiroshima or did a Kyoto leg. I'm just bored of Osaka & Tokyo.

[Best Loser]

I didn't want more preaching at Hiroshima, it always feels at those points that racers are reading from a script.  I think anyone with much of a brain realises the tragedy at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, so I don't need to be spoken to like I'm an ignorant child there.  The gameshow thing was alright and pretty funny.  But I really don't think you can realistically get to know a country just by watching an episode in this entertainment show, just take it for what it is..light entertainment.

It's completely different reading about it in a textbook and being at that site participating in a memorial service.

[Declive]

I agree , they got us to really know Japan.

[kenchan]

It was also interesting to see the teams fumbling at the train/bus ticket vending machines - I hope some JR employees get to see this episode - that little bit of Romaji on the display really don't help the tourists much, it seems (or maybe they just in a rush...)

Also, I'd have to believe that BBRachel's thoughts were at least in indirect reference to the solidarity the Japanese showed in the aftermath of 3.11.

[choroneko]

It was also interesting to see the teams fumbling at the train/bus ticket vending machines - I hope some JR employees get to see this episode - that little bit of Romaji on the display really don't help the tourists much, it seems (or maybe they just in a rush...)

Also, I'd have to believe that BBRachel's thoughts were at least in indirect reference to the solidarity the Japanese showed in the aftermath of 3.11.

What did she said? I wasn't really paying much attention. Hehe 

[Kamineko]

I really love this leg, because I've wanted to go to Japan since I was little kid!! I love how they managed to show many elements of Japan in a single episode!!

[Katarzyna]

Yea, it was a beautiful leg. However, the Tokyo night leg in TAR 9 is still my favorite Japan leg. Shibuya crossing & the capsule hotel. 
In this leg, the detour was quite underwhelming. I thought the sushi bingo will be hard.

[topaz]

It wasn't really that great to me. Though, I was touched they paid respects and took a moment in the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Park.
I'd be more impressed if they just stayed in Hiroshima or did a Kyoto leg. I'm just bored of Osaka & Tokyo.

about that being paid respect to the victims of the atom bomb, I say we've never know if those 4 remaining teams had really touched their emotions to the event that ended the World War 2, literally and felt sorry for it or it was just a plain publicity to the show.  Because unlike on the All-Star edition, if you'd watched the Poland leg there, they'd visited the Auschwitz concentration camp and paid respect to the victims of the Holocaust during that war led by Nazi Germany, the 6 remaining teams really paid respect there and I remember that Charla and Mirna had commented on the Armenian genocide during World War 1 as they believed it was very similar to the crimes that had committed by the Nazis against the Jews, Gypsies, gays, etc.  But on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it's a different story because some Americans doesn't want to admit that kind of crime they'd committed and they have reasons why it should had drop the bomb to that 2 cities as a result to the payback of the Pearl Harbor attack and being an alliance to the Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy during the war.  And to prove that, here some links that I'd found some controversial topics on IMDB regarding this episode:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0285335/board/thread/198692314

...and the other one topic there that entitled, The murderer won was recently deleted by the IMDB admin because of too much political talk about visiting the Hiroshima peace memorial and some they'd dismayed about the winning of Rachel and Dave while apologizing the bombing of that city as they are military couples who went to Iraq and Afghanistan before in order to kill the terrorists there after 9/11 as for the sake of "security" and "freedom" in America.

[starrynight]

It's completely different reading about it in a textbook and being at that site participating in a memorial service.

Yeh but I'm sure for some viewers at least hearing some short platitudes in the middle of a race isn't really going to be that informative.

[kenchan]

Topaz,
thanks for sharing that link.

I would like to believe that the participants of this forum are fairly well educated fans of the Amazing Race who enjoy worldly views, and firmly understand that there are "two sides to every story". It is my hope that we can continue to partake in this discussion so we can all reflect, share and learn in a fair and factual manner, without any personal attacks.

But on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it's a different story because some Americans doesn't want to admit that kind of crime they'd committed and they have reasons why it should had drop the bomb to that 2 cities as a result to the payback of the Pearl Harbor attack and being an alliance to the Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy during the war. 
...

I'd be interested in finding our more about Army Dave's view on Hiroshima.  Not as a challenge, but I am curious to find out what really went through his mind as he saw the Atomic Dome, as an American, and as a human being.


Like most of you in this forum, I too was born in a generation that "never knew about THE war (WWII)", as opposed to my parents' generation (they were directly affected by it).  Some of you who are parents may be watching TAR with your children too. So WWII was just something you learn in history books.

Yet, we have seen different kids of wars since then, some even broadcast live on CNN, some going on right now.  You may have your own more personal experiences that you have lived through. A lot of us are (unfortunately) familiar with the idea.

So from that standpoint, we are more or less in the same boat.

Given that, I think it's important that we reflect on this topic that was presented to us.


I first learned about WWII when I was attending elementary school in Japan. The history curriculum in Japan at the time didn't present WWII with severe amounts of animosity, but what is interesting is that not a whole lot is taught about Japan immediately after WWII. This is perhaps due to the mostly apologetic tone that the Japanese government had during the post-war era, coupled with the influences of the GHQ. It was not a very proud era for the Japanese to say the least.

Then I learned about WWII at an American high school. I think most people on this forum know the story from this angle.

About 15 years ago, I visited the Bradbury Science Museum in Los Alamos, NM  (http://www.lanl.gov/museum/index.shtml), and I was able to view the exhibits in a somewhat neutral stance.  I have to admit it was bone chilling to read the copies of American newspapers from August 7, 1945, however, I was able to walk through the museum to understand a certain historical perspective without getting overly emotional for the rest of the exhibit. I could only imagine that my parents or late grandparents would be thinking if they were to go visit this museum.

Despite the somewhat brief appearance of the Atomic Dome during our beloved American TV show compared to the Auschwitz tribute many seasons ago, and setting aside any speculation as to why the Atomic Dome visit didn't include a lengthy a tribute like the one at Auschwitz, I still truly appreciate Phil and the TAR producers in bringing attention to the matter in order to stir conversation about humanity.  There are very few historical events that have the same level of impact to humanity in such a short amount of time as what happened on August 6, 1945. Yes, that was 67 years ago. It's "history" by all means. I hope we all agree this is the type of history that must not be repeated.  And those lessons need to be passed down the generations.


Sidenote: The City of Hiroshima had previously proposed to tear it down as the structure is not sound (think earthquakes like 3.11 and all of the Japanese building codes), and you have to admit, it is a rather (purposely) depressing looking structure (in contrast to the modern buildings around it), but its status as a UNESCO World Heritage site still holds, and as recently as 5 months before the race visited Hiroshima, the city had completed some reinforcement work. With respect to the lives lost at the moment of impact, it's a very small price to pay to preserve this memory.

References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroshima_Peace_Memorial
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8E%9F%E7%88%86%E3%83%89%E3%83%BC%E3%83%A0

[SuperTux]

This episode is good, but actually I don't deem that highly of it in terms of revealing real Japan. This episode only leaves me with the impression that Japanese enjoy playing games a lot.

It wasn't really that great to me. Though, I was touched they paid respects and took a moment in the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Park.
I'd be more impressed if they just stayed in Hiroshima or did a Kyoto leg. I'm just bored of Osaka & Tokyo.

I was really moved when watching the review of Hiroshima Atom Bomb in this episode, though I'm Chinese. It was a tragedy. Peace is more important than anything else; we don't wanna see something that bad happen again.

I didn't want more preaching at Hiroshima, it always feels at those points that racers are reading from a script.

[kenchan]

This episode is good, but actually I don't deem that highly of it in terms of revealing real Japan. This episode only leaves me with the impression that Japanese enjoy playing games a lot.

I think the Japanese invented the self-humiliating TV game show genre with "Za Gaman". --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Za_Gaman

[choroneko]

It wasn't really that great to me. Though, I was touched they paid respects and took a moment in the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Park.
I'd be more impressed if they just stayed in Hiroshima or did a Kyoto leg. I'm just bored of Osaka & Tokyo.

about that being paid respect to the victims of the atom bomb, I say we've never know if those 4 remaining teams had really touched their emotions to the event that ended the World War 2, literally and felt sorry for it or it was just a plain publicity to the show.  Because unlike on the All-Star edition, if you'd watched the Poland leg there, they'd visited the Auschwitz concentration camp and paid respect to the victims of the Holocaust during that war led by Nazi Germany, the 6 remaining teams really paid respect there and I remember that Charla and Mirna had commented on the Armenian genocide during World War 1 as they believed it was very similar to the crimes that had committed by the Nazis against the Jews, Gypsies, gays, etc.  But on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it's a different story because some Americans doesn't want to admit that kind of crime they'd committed and they have reasons why it should had drop the bomb to that 2 cities as a result to the payback of the Pearl Harbor attack and being an alliance to the Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy during the war.  And to prove that, here some links that I'd found some controversial topics on IMDB regarding this episode:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0285335/board/thread/198692314

...and the other one topic there that entitled, The murderer won was recently deleted by the IMDB admin because of too much political talk about visiting the Hiroshima peace memorial and some they'd dismayed about the winning of Rachel and Dave while apologizing the bombing of that city as they are military couples who went to Iraq and Afghanistan before in order to kill the terrorists there after 9/11 as for the sake of "security" and "freedom" in America.

Regardless of the racers' sincerity, I'm glad they went and took a moment of serenity in the park. Props to the production. And yes, I know some Americans think it was a good riddance to us. I read alot of hurtful comments from them. It's already up to them how they want to present theirselves to the world. 

[Prophet]

I'm not sure I want to get into this and I haven't thoroughly read this entire thread, but please remember that Japan attacked innocent Americans first.

ETA: Do I hate Japanese today? Absolutely not. But when it comes to history, maybe we shouldn't leave out important facts? There will always be innocent people killed in war; this is a sad byproduct of war. I just wish people wouldn't try to make America sound so evil.

[choroneko]

I'm not sure I want to get into this and I haven't thoroughly read this entire thread, but please remember that Japan attacked innocent Americans first.

ETA: Do I hate Japanese today? Absolutely not. But when it comes to history, maybe we shouldn't leave out important facts? There will always be innocent people killed in war; this is a sad byproduct of war. I just wish people wouldn't try to make America sound so evil.

I'm not! I'm only sharing what I've seen. I read hurtful comments when the 3/11 tsunami happened. It's unfair to bring up the war crimes the Imperial Japan did when it has nothing to do with the tsunami.

[Prophet]

Then never mind me. I don't really know what the tsunami has to do with anything.

[Prophet]

I was addressing something that bothered me both when I watched the episode and when I read some comments upthread. I have no idea how the 2011 tsunami got thrown into this discussion, but it has nothing to do with war. It is fine and wonderful to mourn innocent people who were killed as a result of war. But at the same time, please do not demonize war altogether or make America out to be evil. That's all I was trying to convey.

[choroneko]

I was addressing something that bothered me both when I watched the episode and when I read some comments upthread. I have no idea how the 2011 tsunami got thrown into this discussion, but it has nothing to do with war. It is fine and wonderful to mourn innocent people who were killed as a result of war. But at the same time, please do not demonize war altogether or make America out to be evil. That's all I was trying to convey.

I apologize for my vague statements. I was talking about the hurtful comments to Japan. And I'm not demonizing USA at all. I should've said anonymous people, instead of specifying it.

[Prophet]

I understand, maybe I came on too strong, but I was actually referring to comments which were not yours.

The tsunami was a horrible tragedy and anyone who says Japan deserved it needs to shut up.

[kenchan]

I think it's healthy we are having this discussion - whether we are on the verge of fighting - it gives us a chance to understand.  (Thanks Prophet for landing back on earth  )

Actually, some people would argue that WWII in the Pacific actually began earlier in the 20th Century with end of the Japano-Russo War (the last war that Japan won with the help of the British Navy - and the Americans were involved as peace negotiators, and hosted the delegates just outside of Portsmouth, NH in 1905 for the signing of the peace treaty).  This established Japan as a prominent player in the Asia Pacific region, but soon after, the Japanese Army performed many unspeakable acts on the Asian continent.
And some would even argue that was war against Russia was necessitated by Japan's rapid westernization in which the lack of natural energy resources became highlighted as a huge problem. And what event kick-started Japan's rapid westernization? It was Commodore Perry's arrival in the mid 1850s (See? All of these TAR episodes come full circle and you get a pretty nice history lesson).  Until then, Japan had been isolated in international trade for over 200 years, during which only the Dutch and the Chinese traded in a limited capacity with the Japanese.

But again, I'm not here to point fingers either.   

If you feel strongly about any of this, I would encourage people to go find books and other forms of information about WWII. 

I, for one, am just fascinated how the word "STORY" is part of the word "hiSTORY".  It teaches us who we are. Just like this show does.

[bcp19]

I was addressing something that bothered me both when I watched the episode and when I read some comments upthread. I have no idea how the 2011 tsunami got thrown into this discussion, but it has nothing to do with war. It is fine and wonderful to mourn innocent people who were killed as a result of war. But at the same time, please do not demonize war altogether or make America out to be evil. That's all I was trying to convey.

I apologize for my vague statements. I was talking about the hurtful comments to Japan. And I'm not demonizing USA at all. I should've said anonymous people, instead of specifying it.

Having spent 20 years in the Navy, and with 4 or 5 deployments in Japan along with some ship visits, I can see both sides of this.  I could never get behind the old "Sins of the father are now sins of the son" attitude.  The Japanese culture is a rich and varied one, but without understanding it, you can easily make a fool of yourself when dealing with them.

One time, the ship I was on pulled in Sasebo, and being familiar with Japan and Japanese culture, I understood the meaning behind several the signs that had others ready to trash talk the locals.  I took a lot of time making sure those idiots learned the truth before they did something stupid.  The sign?  "No American".  The general meaning? "No english spoken here".  I knew enough Japanese to be able to go into a place like that, and I always remember the smiles that I would get once I spoke their language to them.

The sad reality is too many people do not take the time to understand the reasons behind things and make (often incorrect) snap judgements based on how they would mean it if they had posted a sign lilke that, and then act on that assumption.  I would be sad to be on the race and only get a short stop in Japan, I've always wanted to go back there for a visit, but that will have to wait until I retire, more than lilkely.

[kenchan]

The sad reality is too many people do not take the time to understand the reasons behind things and make (often incorrect) snap judgements based on how they would mean it if they had posted a sign lilke that, and then act on that assumption.  I would be sad to be on the race and only get a short stop in Japan, I've always wanted to go back there for a visit, but that will have to wait until I retire, more than lilkely.

Well put, bcp19! 
And thanks for sharing your experiences with the Navy.

[SuperTux]

I'm just curious why this thread created only recently. TAR has visited Japan for many times. Is it the first time that TAR mentioned the war?

[Jimmer]

I'm just curious why this thread created only recently. TAR has visited Japan for many times. Is it the first time that TAR mentioned the war?

kenchen had an opinion that TAR 20 Leg 11 showcased Japan the best. (He explains in post 1)

[choroneko]

I'm just curious why this thread created only recently. TAR has visited Japan for many times. Is it the first time that TAR mentioned the war?

The war is not the main purpose this thread was created. It was just brought up along the way.

[kenchan]

The war is not the main purpose this thread was created. It was just brought up along the way.

WWII was never mentioned in previous visits to Japan, which makes this visit different from the 4 previous visits.

With this leg, I believe Japan is now the 4th most visited country (besides the US) so far in TAR history.  The super-strong Japanese yen doesn't seem to stop them from going.

[starrynight]

ETA: Do I hate Japanese today? Absolutely not. But when it comes to history, maybe we shouldn't leave out important facts? There will always be innocent people killed in war; this is a sad byproduct of war. I just wish people wouldn't try to make America sound so evil.

I'm sure hardly anyone hates Japanese people now, time moves on and people move on, new generations come along as well.  Japan has moved on as well.  But now that I say that we'll probably get some preaching in the next season about how Japan has moved on and isn't that great (just like there was on Vietnam) lol. 

Actually the thing that probably annoys me most about American reality shows is how they state the very obvious so much (about the game, or social/political things) as if most of the audience are idiots. 

I'm not sure many people try and make America sound evil either, not more than try and make Britain sound evil.  And really facts in American history books haven't exactly been known for always being prevalent anyway.    But you hope some people can at least think for themselves, particularly in this internet age where information is more easily available and outside of easy government control.

[topaz]

Is it the first time that TAR mentioned the war?

actually, no.  The Japan leg on TAR 20 was the 3rd one to mentioned about the war.  The 1st one was on season 10 when they'd visited the infamous Hanoi Hilton in which it isn't a hotel, it's a prison for American POWs during the Vietnam War and the 2nd one was on All Star edition when they'd visited to Auschwitz Concentration Camp in Poland and paid respect to the victims of the Holocaust during World War 2.

[SuperTux]

I'm sure hardly anyone hates Japanese people now, time moves on and people move on, new generations come along as well.  Japan has moved on as well.

This is NOT true in East Asia. Browse fora and you'll see Chinese people, Korean people and Japanese people hate each other online.    Sometimes it looks funny to see them attacking each other.

I appreciate this thread because it helps ventilate the WWII issue and people from different nations can exchange ideas, which would narrow the gap between our opinions. Here I'm gonna say what Chinese people, as far as I know, think of Japan in terms of WWII history.

In China I know there are some (more than a few) young cynics who hate Japan with no reason other than WWII. Most of them, who're called "the angry young men" (which is a derogative term) in Chinese, from my observation, don't really think over the issue deeply; they're just going with the flow, like what many young people do with fashion and famous brands. It's not cerebral.

But there is something that does annoy Chinese (maybe Korean people as well) a lot. In our eyes Japan has been holding an ambiguous attitude towards WWII; sometimes Japan does apologize, but sometimes it doesn't seem so genuine. We're worried about the rising of the ethics of militarism in Japan; we're just expecting Japan to treat the history honestly and not to do something like distorting the truth in history textbooks. Many Chinese people won't hate Japan at all if Japan treats the history just as what Germany did with it.

I don't know what other Chinese think about Atom Bomb. Personally my attitude is this: I feel sorry for what Japanese suffered from during that bomb, but it was not America's crime. Please believe that Japan in the militarism ethos had wreaked the same (maybe even more) serious havoc in China, Korea and other Asian nations.

[TARFansurvivor]

This is my favorite Japan leg.
If they go to Japan again i will like to see Kyoto, The Beautiful Islands in the South and the snowy North!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SuperTux]

I, for one, am just fascinated how the word "STORY" is part of the word "hiSTORY".  It teaches us who we are. Just like this show does.

I didn't notice this! Hi story!

[Glamazon Racer]

My favourite leg in Japan would have to be TAR12's by a LONG way! That is one of my favourite legs of all time! I can't comment on how well it showcases the country, as I'm not Japanese, but in terms of an episode of TAR, that leg was beyond flawless!

TAR9 and TAR15 had above average legs in Japan as well. I wasn't too fond of TAR18's or TAR20's Japan legs, although I did love visiting the Hiroshima memorial for the bomb.

[topaz]

This is NOT true in East Asia. Browse fora and you'll see Chinese people, Korean people and Japanese people hate each other online.    Sometimes it looks funny to see them attacking each other.

Well, not only Chinese, Koreans and Japanese people hating each other online about the war issue, the Filipinos as well.  Actually, it's a different story though when both China and Philippines are making hate to each other through online when recently the Chinese navies had "invaded illegally" to a Philippine-claimed small island of Scarborough Shoal or also known as Panatag Shoal in my country.  And by tomorrow, the Filipino activists will march toward to the Chinese embassy to make a protest about this issue, and it is not related to the horrors of World War 2.  And if you could take a look on China right now, that country are a totalitarian and communist state and unlike before, their armed forces are becoming stronger and numerous and their war technology is somewhat modern.  And that should be concern about the Asian countries right now like Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Philippines, etc.
World War 3 anyone?!

[kenchan]

I'm sure hardly anyone hates Japanese people now, time moves on and people move on, new generations come along as well.  Japan has moved on as well.

This is NOT true in East Asia. Browse fora and you'll see Chinese people, Korean people and Japanese people hate each other online.    Sometimes it looks funny to see them attacking each other.

I appreciate this thread because it helps ventilate the WWII issue and people from different nations can exchange ideas, which would narrow the gap between our opinions. Here I'm gonna say what Chinese people, as far as I know, think of Japan in terms of WWII history.

Thanks for the reply, SuperTux.

The atrocities committed by the Japanese military in the earlier half of the 20th century no doubt gave rise to the animosity felt by Chinese and Koreans even to this day. I have heard that text books in South Korea even in recent years discussed the Japanese occupation (1910-) and the events up to the end of WWII in a rather strong tone (against Japan), which are most likely perpetuating those views. Needless to say, this is not a proud era in Japanese history.

This is why it's so important we take time to talk about it and to reflect upon historical events ( even Phil retweeted my tweet about this thread! ).
If we take the lessons from history and spend time understanding why things happened from both angles, as bcp19 suggested, we can all become better citizens of the world -- and hopefully prevent WW3.

• Why did those events happen?
• Why did they *have* to happen?
• And perhaps most importantly, imagine if we were in the political hot seat at the time. What would we have done differently? Or similarly?
• While we are at it... What would the world look like today if WWII didn't happen? And can we use any part of that imagination to prevent future conflict at such a massive scale?

[kenchan]

My favourite leg in Japan would have to be TAR12's by a LONG way! That is one of my favourite legs of all time! I can't comment on how well it showcases the country, as I'm not Japanese, but in terms of an episode of TAR, that leg was beyond flawless!

TAR9 and TAR15 had above average legs in Japan as well. I wasn't too fond of TAR18's or TAR20's Japan legs, although I did love visiting the Hiroshima memorial for the bomb.

TAR12's Osaka leg was pretty good!  I especially liked the pit stop, Japan's shortest mountain (in contrast to the pitstop for TAR9 at Lake Yamanaka - in front of Japan's tallest peak). That was a great find! I mentioned that to my friends from Osaka, and they all snicker when they hear "Tempo-zan Ko-en".  ("Oh yeah, *that* place...")

I also liked how both TAR9 and TAR12 featured racers who had Japanese communication skills. Tyler's Japanese was of course full of slang (thanks to his girlfriend at the time) which made it even more fun for us Japanese natives to hear! (e.g. When he was riding the fold-up bike between Shinjuku and Shibuya, he kept on saying "cho-tanoshii!" = "this rocks!") Christina's Japanese was more or less formal, but she too did a great job talking with the locals, asking for directions, etc., which definitely helped in their 1st place finish in that leg.

TAR15 featuring Flight Time and Big Easy in the Shibuya Scramble was just hilarious.  I could imagine myself witnessing that scene, where those two guys were just TOWERING over everyone in the area.   

(Oh! And TAR15 featured perhaps the one and only live public protest caught on tape by the TAR camera crew- it was a protest about an mis-statement made during an NHK documentary that almost jeopardized Japan-Taiwan relations. The fact that the protest made airtime on American TV has to be pretty significant.　I did some research on that protest - let me know if any of you want more info.)

[SuperTux]

This is NOT true in East Asia. Browse fora and you'll see Chinese people, Korean people and Japanese people hate each other online.    Sometimes it looks funny to see them attacking each other.

Well, not only Chinese, Koreans and Japanese people hating each other online about the war issue, the Filipinos as well.  Actually, it's a different story though when both China and Philippines are making hate to each other through online when recently the Chinese navies had "invaded illegally" to a Philippine-claimed small island of Scarborough Shoal or also known as Panatag Shoal in my country.  And by tomorrow, the Filipino activists will march toward to the Chinese embassy to make a protest about this issue, and it is not related to the horrors of World War 2.  And if you could take a look on China right now, that country are a totalitarian and communist state and unlike before, their armed forces are becoming stronger and numerous and their war technology is somewhat modern.  And that should be concern about the Asian countries right now like Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Philippines, etc.
World War 3 anyone?!

The following is our perspective in China: that island (Huangyan island in Chinese, or Scarborugh Shoal in English) belongs to China according to the history. China found this island in 1279. Guo Shoujing made some measurement experiments there. No treaty so far claims that that island belongs to Philippine. Actually the map produced by Philippine in 1980's excluded Huangyan island from Philippine's territory.

I laughed when seeing you mentioned that Chinese forces are becoming "stronger" and war technology is modern. Now netizens here in China are blaming Chinese Army for being cowards. You may see a lot of posts like "Philippine is bullying us. Why don't we fight back? Chinese government and the army are cowards. They suck. We're in another Qing Dynasty blablabla..."  Since China has officially proclaimed that it opposes hegemonism in all forms, I don't think China will break the promise unless Philippine doesn't do some control over the circumstances.

China is not totalitarian and, to some extent, not that communist now.  Sometimes we joke that Chinese-style commusism=economic capitalism+politically ambiguous socialism.  I think presently the policies made by Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao are a little bit leaning towards the right-wing compared with the former leaders. The power of the extreme left-wing led by Bo Xilai recently collapsed in the political conflict. (See also Wang Lijun's treason case)

I'm sure hardly anyone hates Japanese people now, time moves on and people move on, new generations come along as well.  Japan has moved on as well.

This is NOT true in East Asia. Browse fora and you'll see Chinese people, Korean people and Japanese people hate each other online.    Sometimes it looks funny to see them attacking each other.

I appreciate this thread because it helps ventilate the WWII issue and people from different nations can exchange ideas, which would narrow the gap between our opinions. Here I'm gonna say what Chinese people, as far as I know, think of Japan in terms of WWII history.

Thanks for the reply, SuperTux.

The atrocities committed by the Japanese military in the earlier half of the 20th century no doubt gave rise to the animosity felt by Chinese and Koreans even to this day. I have heard that text books in South Korea even in recent years discussed the Japanese occupation (1910-) and the events up to the end of WWII in a rather strong tone (against Japan), which are most likely perpetuating those views. Needless to say, this is not a proud era in Japanese history.

This is why it's so important we take time to talk about it and to reflect upon historical events ( even Phil retweeted my tweet about this thread! ). 
If we take the lessons from history and spend time understanding why things happened from both angles, as bcp19 suggested, we can all become better citizens of the world -- and hopefully prevent WW3.

• Why did those events happen?
• Why did they *have* to happen?
• And perhaps most importantly, imagine if we were in the political hot seat at the time. What would we have done differently? Or similarly?
• While we are at it... What would the world look like today if WWII didn't happen? And can we use any part of that imagination to prevent future conflict at such a massive scale?

You can be at ease in the case of Chinese history textbook because in my memory when we were taught about this historical events the textbook was not describing it in a strong tone. It was quite plain; we were shown some photos, the number of deaths and the discussion over this event (something like "this event wreaked great havoc in China and blablabla" ). It wasn't described differently from other events such as French Revolution in terms of the tone. 

I agree that it's important to take time to range over it to reflect upon historical events because no history textbook can get rid of underlying prejudice. It'd be great if we read ideas from different nations. This would help us rebuild the real scenarios in that era.

For example, I'd never thought that the US "dropped the bomb to that 2 cities as a result to the payback of the Pearl Harbor attack and being an alliance to the Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy during the war" before I read this thread. If this description occurs in the textbook, I'd think it is somewhat narrow-minded, though I can't remember anything discussing the reason why the US did so in our textbook. IMHO by that time the US had got the case of Pearl Harbor over. They threw those 2 bombs for boosting Japan's capitulation, or maybe for letting Japan experience the havoc other Asian people had experienced.

And you were so lucky! Phil has never replied to me.

[DrRox]

kenchan...........this is an intersting thread. But I have a question. The following quote from your first post is extremely ambigious to me. Maybe I am just simple minded, but would you explain what you mean by it. I have been to both Hiroshima and Nagasaki......and personally I appreciated the memorial in Nagasaki more....

[kenchan]

kenchan...........this is an intersting thread. But I have a question. The following quote from your first post is extremely ambigious to me. Maybe I am just simple minded, but would you explain what you mean by it. I have been to both Hiroshima and Nagasaki......and personally I appreciated the memorial in Nagasaki more....

Thanks - and sure, I can explain, but which part?

[DrRox]

Oops........I forgot the phrase.......my bad.

* The TRAGEDY of Japan: Atomic Bomb Dome in Hiroshima

[choroneko]

Oops........I forgot the phrase.......my bad.

* The TRAGEDY of Japan: Atomic Bomb Dome in Hiroshima

I think he was just referring to the ones featured or shown in leg 11 of season 20. Nagasaki was not visited.

[choroneko]

I'm sure hardly anyone hates Japanese people now, time moves on and people move on, new generations come along as well.  Japan has moved on as well.

This is NOT true in East Asia. Browse fora and you'll see Chinese people, Korean people and Japanese people hate each other online.    Sometimes it looks funny to see them attacking each other.

I appreciate this thread because it helps ventilate the WWII issue and people from different nations can exchange ideas, which would narrow the gap between our opinions. Here I'm gonna say what Chinese people, as far as I know, think of Japan in terms of WWII history.

Thanks for the reply, SuperTux.

The atrocities committed by the Japanese military in the earlier half of the 20th century no doubt gave rise to the animosity felt by Chinese and Koreans even to this day. I have heard that text books in South Korea even in recent years discussed the Japanese occupation (1910-) and the events up to the end of WWII in a rather strong tone (against Japan), which are most likely perpetuating those views. Needless to say, this is not a proud era in Japanese history.

This is why it's so important we take time to talk about it and to reflect upon historical events ( even Phil retweeted my tweet about this thread! ).
If we take the lessons from history and spend time understanding why things happened from both angles, as bcp19 suggested, we can all become better citizens of the world -- and hopefully prevent WW3.

• Why did those events happen?
• Why did they *have* to happen?
• And perhaps most importantly, imagine if we were in the political hot seat at the time. What would we have done differently? Or similarly?
• While we are at it... What would the world look like today if WWII didn't happen? And can we use any part of that imagination to prevent future conflict at such a massive scale?

I always thought, what could've been a better alternative for the atomic bombings?
If it wasn't for those bombings, Japan will never surrender, the war could last longer and could cost more lives.

[kenchan]

* The TRAGEDY of Japan: Atomic Bomb Dome in Hiroshima

It's a place where a symbol of the human tragedy of war is preserved to this day.

The one in Nagasaki (http://g.co/maps/v9f9q) embodies peace and hope, while the one in Hiroshima embodies the (dare I say this) terror of war in its raw form. They seem to convey the same hope for peace but from opposite angles, which is also interesting.  Thanks for bringing this up.

[kenchan]

There are two references I'd like to share.

• A Japanese book titled 「おじいちゃん、戦争のこと教えて」 (http://amzn.to/jNaHiA) or "Grandpa, Tell Me About the War" (that's my translation of the Japanese title), in which Asahi Breweries Board Member Takanori Nakajo (who was a Japanese Army cadet in training at the time of surrender but never went to battle) receives a letter from his granddaughter asking for help with her history project on WWII, while attending the Masters School in New York. He then painstakingly AND rather objectively recalls the events before, during, and after the war, from several view points, and answers his granddaughters 16 or so questions. The result is what he published. This book filled in a lot of blanks for me and completely changed my view of the war. I wish this book would get translated to other languages.
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_bomb_debate -- I think this Wikipedia article not only sheds light on various angles regarding the use of the a-bomb in Japan, it also makes us think about more recent military events. Were they necessary?

I think this is a good time for a... 

[kenchan]

And folks, please feel free to bring up other parts of this leg too!

• How long did it take from Cochin to Hiroshima? What route did they take? Did they fly via Incheon? (I ask because getting from India to Japan isn't as simple as it seems. There used to be a Delhi--Narita flight on JAL, but no more)
• That 700 series Shinkansen "Nozomi" - how cool was that?
• Why in the world did Phil and crew decide to hide in the bushes near the Osaka-jo castle?
• Who were those rocker greeters?

[SuperTux]

I'm sure hardly anyone hates Japanese people now, time moves on and people move on, new generations come along as well.  Japan has moved on as well.

This is NOT true in East Asia. Browse fora and you'll see Chinese people, Korean people and Japanese people hate each other online.    Sometimes it looks funny to see them attacking each other.

I appreciate this thread because it helps ventilate the WWII issue and people from different nations can exchange ideas, which would narrow the gap between our opinions. Here I'm gonna say what Chinese people, as far as I know, think of Japan in terms of WWII history.

Thanks for the reply, SuperTux.

The atrocities committed by the Japanese military in the earlier half of the 20th century no doubt gave rise to the animosity felt by Chinese and Koreans even to this day. I have heard that text books in South Korea even in recent years discussed the Japanese occupation (1910-) and the events up to the end of WWII in a rather strong tone (against Japan), which are most likely perpetuating those views. Needless to say, this is not a proud era in Japanese history.

This is why it's so important we take time to talk about it and to reflect upon historical events ( even Phil retweeted my tweet about this thread! ).
If we take the lessons from history and spend time understanding why things happened from both angles, as bcp19 suggested, we can all become better citizens of the world -- and hopefully prevent WW3.

• Why did those events happen?
• Why did they *have* to happen?
• And perhaps most importantly, imagine if we were in the political hot seat at the time. What would we have done differently? Or similarly?
• While we are at it... What would the world look like today if WWII didn't happen? And can we use any part of that imagination to prevent future conflict at such a massive scale?

I always thought, what could've been a better alternative for the atomic bombings?
If it wasn't for those bombings, Japan will never surrender, the war could last longer and could cost more lives.

Ditto!

[starrynight]

I, for one, am just fascinated how the word "STORY" is part of the word "hiSTORY".  It teaches us who we are. Just like this show does.

Or deceives us, as stories can be fiction of course.  Dangerous to just see history simply as instruction.  Many people take what they read in a textbook as fact and gain false knowledge often.

I'm sure hardly anyone hates Japanese people now, time moves on and people move on, new generations come along as well.  Japan has moved on as well.

This is NOT true in East Asia. Browse fora and you'll see Chinese people, Korean people and Japanese people hate each other online.    Sometimes it looks funny to see them attacking each other.

I'm sure it is less true among some people in the Far East, though I was mainly thinking about the places where The Amazing Race (American version) is shown.

[redskevin88]

90,000 - 166,000 people died in the bombings of Hiroshima & Nagasaki
100,000 people died in the bombings of Tokyo during WWII

Japan killed 30 million Asians during World War II.

Which is the bigger tragedy?

[topaz]

90,000 - 166,000 people died in the bombings of Hiroshima & Nagasaki
100,000 people died in the bombings of Tokyo during WWII

Japan killed 30 million Asians during World War II.

Which is the bigger tragedy?

The Japanese killed more than the Nazi Germans which they'd killed 6 million Jews, Gypsies, Communists, gays, etc. during the war?  That's surprising.

[DrRox]

about that being paid respect to the victims of the atom bomb,   


But on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it's a different story because some Americans doesn't want to admit that kind of crime[/b/] they'd committed and they have reasons why it should had drop the bomb to that 2 cities as a result to the payback of the Pearl Harbor attack and being an alliance to the Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy during the war.

1)Japan was a signatory of both the Hague and Geneva Conventions on the conduct of war and treatment of prisioners of war and civilian populations. Yet they did not comply with any of them.

2)The only "victims" of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bombs were about 40-50 Allied POWs that were in those cities being used as forced labor in factories and approximate 3,000-5,000 Korean civilians that were subjagated and taken to Japan and forced to work in the Japanese war industry. Japan made a choice to wage "unlimited/unconditional warfare" across East Asia. There was really no difference in the actions of either the Japanse military personal or civilian personal.........they all waged war. This is documented by the actions of Japanese civilian populations in the Philipines, the Marianas and in Okinawa when they fought to the death along side the Japanese military personal.

You will have to show me where dropping an atom bomb was a "crime." The War Crimes were/are all listed in the Hague and Geneva conventions. The Germans bombed civilian populations in Poland, England, and the Soviet Union, but not ONE German was charged with this crime. Japan bombed civilian populations in EVERY country they invaded, but not ONE Japanese was ever prosecuted for it. Yet you want to make it a crime for the USA because they did.........you should read a lot more history.

3)Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not revenge for Pearl Harbor. But the Doolittle Raid on Japan was retaliaton for Pearl Harbor. Fifteen planes dropped a total of 60 bombs on Japan in March/April of 1942.......that is a lot of retaliation for Pearl Harbor. There were 16 planes on the raid but one plane had mechanical problems and had to jetison its bombs before reaching Japan. 15 of the planes flew onward to China and most of the crews had to bail out when they ran out of fuel. One plane flew to Russia and the crew was interred. Of the 15 crews that reached China, 13 actually escaped capture and returned to the US. Of the two crews captured, a total of 8 airmen, the Japanese beheaded 4 of them for their "crime." Then the Japanese went on a killing spree, killing about 250,000 of Chinese population in retaliation for helping the American flyers.

Are we seeing a pattern here? It is okay for Japan to act one way, but not for other countries to act the same way, it is a crime........gimme a break!

There is an old saying......."Live by the sword and die by the sword,"  well that is what happened to Japan.......They chose to fight an unlimited/unconditonal war and they died by an unlimited/unconditional war. Now, if you have never heard of the Marshall Plan, it would be a good time to actuallly do some research on it.

[DrRox]

The Japanese killed more than the Nazi Germans which they'd killed 6 million Jews, Gypsies, Communists, gays, etc. during the war?  That's surprising.

You really are unknowledgeable or uninformed about WWII. The Soviet Union had the most war dead of any single country......about 20-25 million total deaths, both military and civilian.

[DrRox]

* The TRAGEDY of Japan: Atomic Bomb Dome in Hiroshima

It's a place where a symbol of the human tragedy of war is preserved to this day.

The one in Nagasaki (http://g.co/maps/v9f9q) embodies peace and hope, while the one in Hiroshima embodies the (dare I say this) terror of war in its raw form. They seem to convey the same hope for peace but from opposite angles, which is also interesting.  Thanks for bringing this up.

That is pretty much the same thing I felt about those memorials. They are very poignant. They reminded me of that famous quote by George Santayana, a Spanish philosopher, essayist, poet and novelist (1863-1952). “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

[topaz]

The Japanese killed more than the Nazi Germans which they'd killed 6 million Jews, Gypsies, Communists, gays, etc. during the war?  That's surprising.

You really are unknowledgeable or uninformed about WWII. The Soviet Union had the most war dead of any single country......about 20-25 million total deaths, both military and civilian.

yes, and I'd just saw this info on wikipedia, today: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_War_II_Casualties.svg

And after Soviet Union, China was the 2nd place for most death during World War II.

[DrRox]

There are two references I'd like to share.

• A Japanese book titled 「おじいちゃん、戦争のこと教えて」 (http://amzn.to/jNaHiA) or "Grandpa, Tell Me About the War" (that's my translation of the Japanese title), in which Asahi Breweries Board Member Takanori Nakajo (who was a Japanese Army cadet in training at the time of surrender but never went to battle) receives a letter from his granddaughter asking for help with her history project on WWII, while attending the Masters School in New York. He then painstakingly AND rather objectively recalls the events before, during, and after the war, from several view points, and answers his granddaughters 16 or so questions. The result is what he published. This book filled in a lot of blanks for me and completely changed my view of the war. I wish this book would get translated to other languages.
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_bomb_debate -- I think this Wikipedia article not only sheds light on various angles regarding the use of the a-bomb in Japan, it also makes us think about more recent military events. Were they necessary?

I hope that book gets translated also. The closest I have seen to something like that is "Letters from Iwo Jima" that Clint Eastwood made into a film.

On the Wikipedia reference, it is nice to note the approximate dates of all those quotes. I suspect that they were all within 6 months of the bombings.......and also interesting to look at each person's agenda. If you were one of the miltary commanders at the time......if you drop the bomb.......you job is over. If you do not drop the bomb, you get to command troops in war for another year........everyone of those people quoted were just "feather-bedding" for whatever their job was at the time......better to stay emplyed than out of work. It is interesting that there were no quotes from any privates, corporals or sargents that would have had to land on the beaches and fight for another year, don't you think? How do you thnk they would have voted if asked? Harry Truman was an interesting man. He had been an enlisted man in WWI, so he really identified and thought about the common soldier. He made the decision to drop the bombs......no one else. Estimates are that it shortened the war by one full year, than if the Allies had invaded. Also US casuaties in an invasion were estimated at 1 million soldiers killed and up to 5 million wounded. Japanese casualties were estmated to be about 20 million killed and I have never seen any number about how many wounded. Now the intelligence people that came up with those numbers also predicted the casualties for most of the other battles that the US was involved in the Pacific Theater of war......they grossly UNDER estimated every single battle. So I doubt that they actually came up with a correct figure for the planned invasion of Japan. As bad as the casualties for the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings........an invasion would have made them look angelic. This is what Dave Brown was referencing when he made those remarks......dropping the bombs actually saved lives.

If Harry Truman had not ordered the dropping the bombs.......I might not even be here today.....along with a lot of other children of WWII veterans and the same is true of Japanese children born after the war.  No one every seems to think of that. My father was a fighter pilot in Europe, survived VE day and was in the process of deploying to Okinawa to fly missions over Japan...He never got there before the war was over. Over 1 million US soldiers had been deplyed from Europe to the western Pacific between VE day and Aug of 1945 with approximated 4 million more on the way.

[DrRox]

And folks, please feel free to bring up other parts of this leg too!

• How long did it take from Cochin to Hiroshima? What route did they take? Did they fly via Incheon? (I ask because getting from India to Japan isn't as simple as it seems. There used to be a Delhi--Narita flight on JAL, but no more)
• That 700 series Shinkansen "Nozomi" - how cool was that?
• Why in the world did Phil and crew decide to hide in the bushes near the Osaka-jo castle?
• Who were those rocker greeters?

1) Well they left Kochi about 11:30 one night and arrived in Hiroshima about 8 pm the next night....so about 20.5 clock hours minus how ever many time zones they crossed. Well at the travel agency in Kochi, they made it pretty clear that teams were scheduled to arrive at 8:10 pm in Hiroshima. That is the Shanghai connection. The Taipei connection was scheduled to arrive at 8:05pm and the Incheon connection was scheduled to arrive at 8:00 pm. Also they showed some pretty strage footage of all the teams getting on a completely empty Eastern China airliner.......where did that come from......LOL When they showed teams actually on the flight with a full planeload of people........the Eastern China Airlines logo was on the seat behind Rached R's head.........so I am going to have to just go with the Kochi>Singapore>Shanghai>Hiroshima route......call me crazy!!!

2) I rode the orginal "Bullet" train back in the 70s......but I would think that the N700 would be just as cool!!

3) Since the pit stop was only 2 hours approx, maybe they were checking teams in and out at the same time....lol

4) I have no idea.........hahahaha  Not my generation.

[redskevin88]

90,000 - 166,000 people died in the bombings of Hiroshima & Nagasaki
100,000 people died in the bombings of Tokyo during WWII

Japan killed 30 million Asians during World War II.

Which is the bigger tragedy?

The Japanese killed more than the Nazi Germans which they'd killed 6 million Jews, Gypsies, Communists, gays, etc. during the war?  That's surprising.

The 30 million was a rough estimate but China alone had 10-20 million civilian deaths during World War II. 

[SuperTux]

90,000 - 166,000 people died in the bombings of Hiroshima & Nagasaki
100,000 people died in the bombings of Tokyo during WWII

Japan killed 30 million Asians during World War II.

Which is the bigger tragedy?

The Japanese killed more than the Nazi Germans which they'd killed 6 million Jews, Gypsies, Communists, gays, etc. during the war?  That's surprising.

The 30 million was a rough estimate but China alone had 10-20 million civilian deaths during World War II.

The data here shows China had 18 million deaths, and 17 million injured.

[DrRox]

90,000 - 166,000 people died in the bombings of Hiroshima & Nagasaki
100,000 people died in the bombings of Tokyo during WWII

Japan killed 30 million Asians during World War II.

Which is the bigger tragedy?

The Japanese killed more than the Nazi Germans which they'd killed 6 million Jews, Gypsies, Communists, gays, etc. during the war?  That's surprising.

The 30 million was a rough estimate but China alone had 10-20 million civilian deaths during World War II.

I had no problems at all with your numbers. They were all pretty close for this forum. One thing I will ad. The US gov and Japanese gov followed most all of the documented casulties from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. As far as I can tell, the last published report from 1950 showed that deaths were about 200,000 for each event up to the reprort time in 1950. That was for people that died during the explosion and people that died as a result of the amount of radiation they received afterwards. The scientists and medical community had said that something like 99.99% of deaths would occur withing 5 years. After that, I know that I read in newspapers and watching news on TV when I was growing up, that every now and then a death would be reported here in the US. It was always a sad moment for me.

[starrynight]

Japan killed 30 million Asians during World War II.

There is no agreed figure on this at all, but people so easily accept what they are told which was my point.  Elsewhere people discuss and question such a figure rather than just accept it blindly.
http://www.jref.com/forum/all-things-japanese-26/has-japan-killed-more-foreign-civilians-wwii-than-any-other-country-history-16290/

[Prophet]

DrRox

Basically, if America did not fight the wars she fought, Germany may still be killing Jews, inncocent Japanese would still be in bondage to their militant government, the Soviet could have unleashed some terror upon the world (they had smallpox strains), thousands of people would still be in the bondage of socialism and Communism, and so on. Sometimes wars are necessary; sometimes not.

[starrynight]

erm American didn't do most of that on it's own, and couldn't have either.  And some things America has done on its own have been misguided.

[DrRox]

erm American didn't do most of that on it's own, and couldn't have either.  And some things America has done on its own have been misguided.

You are quite correct. But then again, hindsight is always 20/20. Also you live in a world where you are entitled to express your opinion, whatever it is.

[DrRox]

DrRox

Basically, if America did not fight the wars she fought, Germany may still be killing Jews, inncocent Japanese would still be in bondage to their militant government, the Soviet could have unleashed some terror upon the world (they had smallpox strains), thousands of people would still be in the bondage of socialism and Communism, and so on. Sometimes wars are necessary; sometimes not.

Functionally, the Soviet Union defeated Germany. The Soviet Union survived with the help of alot of material resources from the United States untill the Soviets could get their factories rebuilt east of the Urals. The turning point in the European Theater was the Battle of Stalingrad. After that battle, the Soviets pushed the Germans all the way back to Berlin. The Western Allies liberated N.Africa, Italy, France and the Low Countries and sort of closed the back door on Germany. By VE Day, the Germany military had ceased to exist.

Japan was a different story. On VJ Day, the Japanese AirForce and Nave were non existant, but the Japanese Army was relatively intact. The problem was, they were scattered and isolated all over East Asia. The main difference in the two theaters was pretty much a simple matter of geography. Germany had the ability to manuver or shift it forces from one place to another and the Japanese lost that ability.

[kenchan]

Wow, the TAR RFF Senior Leadership Team just took over this thread...!


This is turning out to be an interesting discussion.  Any conversation related to war is bound to be emotional. And just as I imagined, there will be people taking sides, justifying certain outcomes with facts. It's hard not to be biased. 

However, I'd like us not to fall into that trap.

The thing that was remarkable about Nakajo's "Grandpa ..." book wasn't just about the detail that he went into about the events of the time and the various debates among Japan's military leaders and the Emperor following the two bombs dropped in early August 1945 leading up to the Unconditional Surrender. It was about how he, as a teenager, felt during those years. 

You just cannot debate over how one feels.

During the war, Nakajo believed that going into the military to serve the country and the citizens around him was the ultimate heroic act. Then the war ended, and faced something he hadn't anticipated. The very people that cheered him on as he left for military school turned their backs completely against him after the unconditional surrender. Just in a matter of 9 days, his world had been flipped upside down.  What he had believed in was for years was no longer true.

Japan had a severe shortage of food and energy around that time, as the government had poured resources into the war.  So he's depressed and starving.

And not-so-coincidentally, according to the book, the GHQ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Commander_of_the_Allied_Powers) had instituted a War Guilt Information Program (WGIP), which Nakajo mentioned was employing the strategy of "The Peace of Carthage" (=the brainwashing the Romans did to make the people of Carthage believe they were guilty for the war).
There aren't a lot of details on WGIP in English, but there are several in Japanese including http://bit.ly/Jl0jAk and http://bit.ly/cRbgCN. Here's one that is written in English, but by a Japanese historian: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1993-11-10/news/1993314036_1_japan-war-guilt-war-of-aggression

And it doesn't stop there. There are other stories about how the GHQ had controlled Japanese media until 1952. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Commander_of_the_Allied_Powers#Media_censorship ) This resulted in a stripping down of the Japanese culture, which in many respects, still has an impact today (ever seen a Japanese person have a difficult time saying "no"? Especially in business?). And how the GHQ basically wrote the Japanese Constitution which is still in effect for the most part, including the controversial Article 9 (which prohibits a national military force for offensive purposes).

The Japanese were told that the war was their fault while being stripped of their cultural identity. And Nakajo got that message loud and clear. Life was very very difficult. He contemplated terminating his life.

Just think about the power that the US Government had over Japan during those 7 years.   

Not saying whether the Japanese deserved it or not. 

How would you feel if you were a soldier in training during the war? In Japan? In one of the Allied Nations? What would you have done after the war?


Just let it all sink in.


I think it's rather remarkable that Nakajo found meaning in his life (if you read Japanese, you'll find out how in the book - I won't spoil it for you ) and later on became a CEO of a reputable company. Of course, he wasn't the only one who survived that era, but he certainly had a dramatic story to tell. His granddaughter certainly benefited from his story, which helped her get a glowing review from her history teacher, and her classmates at the Masters School got an insider's view at what it was like to be a Japanese in 1945.

(I really hope this book gets translated to English.)

And if one person can tell such a dramatic story, just think about the 20-30 million untold stories.  It doesn't matter where those people are from or who killed them. It's just painful to think about it, but we must.


And I believe that's why TAR makes these kinds of tributes.

Thank you Phil, Bertram, Elise, the camera/sound crews, the staff members at WRP and at the City of Hiroshima.

[starrynight]

Most people who watch The Amazing Race won't find such tributes very instructional imo.  I'm sure most are aware of Hiroshima, and they are unlikely to want to look further into it.

[kenchan]

Most people who watch The Amazing Race won't find such tributes very instructional imo.  I'm sure most are aware of Hiroshima, and they are unlikely to want to look further into it.

That's why this forum exists, right?
 
This thread has been at the top for a while and has over 2100 views. So it does look like there is interest.

Any racers wanna chime in on this subject?

[bcp19]

Most people who watch The Amazing Race won't find such tributes very instructional imo.  I'm sure most are aware of Hiroshima, and they are unlikely to want to look further into it.

That's why this forum exists, right?
 
This thread has been at the top for a while and has over 2100 views. So it does look like there is interest.

Any racers wanna chime in on this subject?

I recently read a book titled "At Dawn We Slept", which was a sort of documentary leading up to the attack on Pearl Harbor.  The author had interviewed numerous Japanese personnel and tried to show an accurate picture of the events that lead up to it.  I found it a very interesting book.  I also recently read "The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors", which was about the battle of Leyte Gulf and a book about the Indianapolis, which some think transported the bombs.  A friend of my parents  grew up near the site of the first A-bomb test (her parents actually worked on the project), and there was a lot of controversy over that first test, as some theorists thought that it would result in a chain reaction that would burn the atmosphere completely off the planet.   Also, the use of the bombs was a huge gamble, since the threat of more was just a bluff.  I admit seeing the memorial at Hiroshima was thought provoking.  There is a lot to be learned from the past, and it is to be hoped that such lessons can be carried forward so they are not repeated.

I had a few uncles that were in various areas of the war, but now it's too late to be able to ask questions about their experiences, which would have been interesting to hear first person.  I know one was a marine in the south Pacific, but had no idea where he actually was, though he recognized some of the places from the movie South Pacific. 

[kenchan]

bcp19,
thanks for the info on that book. I'll have to check it out.

Sidenote - just saw a tweet regarding a protest in Hiroshima against resuming operations at a nuclear power plant (via @monjukun, an anti-nuclear energy activist):

https://twitter.com/#!/monjukun/status/201535702985490433



Obviously, Hiroshima isn't the only place where anti-nuclear energy demonstrations are taking place, but I would imagine people in Hiroshima are considerably more sensitive regarding radiation than the rest of Western Japan. (Western Japan runs on a completely separate power grid from the Eastern half

[topaz]

This is NOT true in East Asia. Browse fora and you'll see Chinese people, Korean people and Japanese people hate each other online.    Sometimes it looks funny to see them attacking each other.

Well, not only Chinese, Koreans and Japanese people hating each other online about the war issue, the Filipinos as well.  Actually, it's a different story though when both China and Philippines are making hate to each other through online when recently the Chinese navies had "invaded illegally" to a Philippine-claimed small island of Scarborough Shoal or also known as Panatag Shoal in my country.  And by tomorrow, the Filipino activists will march toward to the Chinese embassy to make a protest about this issue, and it is not related to the horrors of World War 2.  And if you could take a look on China right now, that country are a totalitarian and communist state and unlike before, their armed forces are becoming stronger and numerous and their war technology is somewhat modern.  And that should be concern about the Asian countries right now like Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Philippines, etc.
World War 3 anyone?!

The following is our perspective in China: that island (Huangyan island in Chinese, or Scarborugh Shoal in English) belongs to China according to the history. China found this island in 1279. Guo Shoujing made some measurement experiments there. No treaty so far claims that that island belongs to Philippine. Actually the map produced by Philippine in 1980's excluded Huangyan island from Philippine's territory.

I laughed when seeing you mentioned that Chinese forces are becoming "stronger" and war technology is modern. Now netizens here in China are blaming Chinese Army for being cowards. You may see a lot of posts like "Philippine is bullying us. Why don't we fight back? Chinese government and the army are cowards. They suck. We're in another Qing Dynasty blablabla..."  Since China has officially proclaimed that it opposes hegemonism in all forms, I don't think China will break the promise unless Philippine doesn't do some control over the circumstances.

China is not totalitarian and, to some extent, not that communist now.  Sometimes we joke that Chinese-style commusism=economic capitalism+politically ambiguous socialism.  I think presently the policies made by Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao are a little bit leaning towards the right-wing compared with the former leaders. The power of the extreme left-wing led by Bo Xilai recently collapsed in the political conflict. (See also Wang Lijun's treason case)

oh?  And I do believe that you live in China, SuperTux.  Well, in that's the case, I want to watch this video coming from the other part of "China" (that is Taiwan) that shows about the issue on the disputed shoal courtesy of youtube: http://youtu.be/TaNVKC-9zlw

And I hope that video is accessible to your country and didn't blocked or censored by your government.

[SuperTux]

This is NOT true in East Asia. Browse fora and you'll see Chinese people, Korean people and Japanese people hate each other online.    Sometimes it looks funny to see them attacking each other.

Well, not only Chinese, Koreans and Japanese people hating each other online about the war issue, the Filipinos as well.  Actually, it's a different story though when both China and Philippines are making hate to each other through online when recently the Chinese navies had "invaded illegally" to a Philippine-claimed small island of Scarborough Shoal or also known as Panatag Shoal in my country.  And by tomorrow, the Filipino activists will march toward to the Chinese embassy to make a protest about this issue, and it is not related to the horrors of World War 2.  And if you could take a look on China right now, that country are a totalitarian and communist state and unlike before, their armed forces are becoming stronger and numerous and their war technology is somewhat modern.  And that should be concern about the Asian countries right now like Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Philippines, etc.
World War 3 anyone?!

The following is our perspective in China: that island (Huangyan island in Chinese, or Scarborugh Shoal in English) belongs to China according to the history. China found this island in 1279. Guo Shoujing made some measurement experiments there. No treaty so far claims that that island belongs to Philippine. Actually the map produced by Philippine in 1980's excluded Huangyan island from Philippine's territory.

I laughed when seeing you mentioned that Chinese forces are becoming "stronger" and war technology is modern. Now netizens here in China are blaming Chinese Army for being cowards. You may see a lot of posts like "Philippine is bullying us. Why don't we fight back? Chinese government and the army are cowards. They suck. We're in another Qing Dynasty blablabla..."  Since China has officially proclaimed that it opposes hegemonism in all forms, I don't think China will break the promise unless Philippine doesn't do some control over the circumstances.

China is not totalitarian and, to some extent, not that communist now.  Sometimes we joke that Chinese-style commusism=economic capitalism+politically ambiguous socialism.  I think presently the policies made by Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao are a little bit leaning towards the right-wing compared with the former leaders. The power of the extreme left-wing led by Bo Xilai recently collapsed in the political conflict. (See also Wang Lijun's treason case)

oh?  And I do believe that you live in China, SuperTux.  Well, in that's the case, I want to watch this video coming from the other part of "China" (that is Taiwan) that shows about the issue on the disputed shoal courtesy of youtube: http://youtu.be/TaNVKC-9zlw

And I hope that video is accessible to your country and didn't blocked or censored by your government.

It's accessible here because I'm using IPV6. I don't know what NMATV is, but I can almost ascertain that it does not represent Taiwan's official opinion.

Officially Taiwan has been silent towards Huangyan Island issue, though President Ma has proclaimed before that South China Sea and the islands in it belong to Republic of China. Actually this happened often because Taiwan is in a dilemma. If Taiwan officially makes an alliance with the mainland in case of protecting the sovereignty over the South China Sea, it means to be directly against America, which would be a great psychological burden for Taiwan; if Taiwan yields to those South East Asian nations, this would mean the loss of territory and sovereignty.

Also it's advisable to notice a fact that it is not that the nation closest to the island has the sovereignty. In the case of Huangyan island, please notice the western border of Philippine is 118°E while Huangyan Island is 117°46′E. This island doesn't belong to Philippine according to a series of treaties including the Treaty of Paris (1898) between the United States, Treaty of Washington (1900) between Spain and the United States,Convention Between the United States and Great Britain (1930), 1935 Constitution of the Philippines, Republic Act No. 3046 "Act to Define the Baselines of the Territorial Sea of the Philippines"(1961), or the 1987 Constitution of the Philippines.

[DrRox]

If anyone is interested in the short version of the Manhatten Project, CBS produced a docudrama in 1989 called DAY ONE. It garnered critical acclaime for its historical accuracy, despite being a drama. It also won the Emmy for Best Drama that year. It starred Brian Denehey. It is available from Amazong on DVD.

The site of the first A Bomb test is called Trinity Site. It is in the New Mexico desert, just east of Socorro, NM. It is open to the public, only two days a year. A Saturday in Oct and another Saturday in April. It is still very radioactive. That test was on July 16, 1945, the same day that the U.S.S. Indianapolis left San Francisco for Tinian Island, with "bomb parts" of the "Little Man" bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima. The test in New Mexico was a test of the "Fat Man" bomb that was dropped on Nagasaki. Kokura, Japan was the orginal target that day, but clouds obscured the city enough that the secondary target was attacked.

The planners in the Manhatten Project chose 4 Japanese cities for A bomb targets: Hiroshima, Niigata, Kokura and Nagasaki. None of these cities were ever bombed by conventional means. At the time, there were only 3 bombs........one in NM and two in Japan......but a steady arrival of more bombs was slated to start arriving in the Mariannas around Aug 18, 1945.

The bombs were not assembled and shipped. They were only shipped in parts. Final assembly only took place after the bombers actually took off from Tinian Island for the trip to Japan.

[kenchan]

Just read this article - interesting insight into Japan's Nuclear Industry... Apparently the inaugural owner of the Yomiuri Giants baseball club and the CIA were involved.  Interesting read! http://blogs.wsj.com/japanrealtime/2012/06/01/japans-nuclear-industry-the-cia-link/

[Jobby]

I really liked the Hiroshima tribute and everything, but NO, this leg was not the best Japan leg I've seen. IMO, I thought the TAR 18 Japan leg was even more memorable, with interesting archery task, waterfall and mud Detour.

The leg was first affected by many bunching points. They fly to Hiroshima on the same plane, then they try to take a bus and Brendon and Rachel got left behind, which at first was exciting, then they caught up again at the train station, where now Rachel and Dave were left behind.. and missed the ferry too... to which the teams realized they only get their clue in the morning.

SO. MUCH. DRAMA. FOR. NOTHING. IMO, there should only be one bunching per leg... and it should only happen at the start for the planes, and nothing else.

Then... just when they finished their hiroshima tribute... yet another bunching point for a train to Osaka!

When they reached Osaka, the Roadblock, was something which we have seen in TAR 15 first leg... then was more exciting, where there were more teams and they had to grab a sushi and it was also funny to watch. This leg... the audiences by the side was... bored IMO, and also, the set was really really not well done. And to be truthful, the task was lame. Which part of Japan did it showcase? Their sadistic side? I'll rather they make them go through a Ninja Warrior obstacle course.

Then come the Sushi Bingo and take pictures with Sumo standees task. Erm, I can play Sushi Bingo and do the Sumo pictures task in ANY country in the world too. That was two random and boring task. I would rather, they go to a Sumo school and learn how to fight against a Sumo wrestler.. like get past a Sumo wrestler to receive their clue or something. Or an eating task where they have to finish a Sumo Steamboat Hotpot, which is a REALLY HUGE PORTION and you can see teams gorging and trying to kill themselves with the task.

As for the Sushi Bingo, same with it, it's more fun to get teams to EAT the sushi, for example for every sushi which they do not need, they have to EAT IT or something like that... I don't know.. the Detour and Roadblock this leg just lacked loads of creativity as compared to the TAR 18 leg which I preferred more.

[Jobby]

BUT, like I said. The Hiroshima tribute rocked. I liked they made them stop racing and read and appreciate and comment on the tribute and what they have seen.

[ryanmissing27]

i liked where this leg was going at the start and that gate in the water that they visited, the name escapes me, is one of my favourite landmarks. I also thought the Hiroshima visit was interesting and new, or at least something that hadn't been done in a while, an international place of memorial like auschwitz in all stars or mandela's cell in tar2. but from therein things went downhill. whoever plans the race or whatever must really REALLY love japanese game shows, i mean it's not enough that it has been done before and even then it's not enough to have only one, but two gimmicky game show-esque tasks (chicken grab and sushi bingo) to showcase Japan? the point of the photo task seemed to be to ironically reverse the japanese tourist stereotype which is a little twisted and almost racist i think. and teams went to the floating gardens in the Umeda sky building to recreate TK and Rachel's clue finding difficulties? surely there must be some other place of significance to hide a clue in the entire city of Osaka.
i did like the pit stop greeters which varied from the normal person in traditional costume with little connection to today.
I think this entire leg could have been forgiven if Art and JJ channelled their inner Misa and Maiya and walked away from the pit stop, at one point i was so sincerely hoping it would happen >< it would have probably been the most epic thing ever to happen if the first and last eliminations had occurred in such a similar fashion

[starrynight]

I actually much preferred Chicken Grab to the Sushi roulette from an earlier season (which was basically just a simple eating contest).  The Bingo one though didn't work well on TV as I think I said earlier.  The taking photos with Japanese people was alright but seemed a bit easy.