Author Topic: TAR 20 Transport  (Read 23988 times)

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Offline redskevin88

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #125 on: March 19, 2012, 08:10:05 PM »
Here is the best flight from Frankfurt to Baku:
Nonstop LH612 1350 2120

The best alternative is to go Munich to Istanbul to Baku:
TK636 1820 2155
TK338 2335 0410+1

It is obvious that the nonstop flight is better IF they can get it.

Yes, but let's not forget that it is a 4 hour drive to Frankfurt and a 2 hour drive to Münuch.

Why can't they just take a train to Frankfurt? They could then "showcase" their beautiful HD.


Offline maf

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #126 on: March 20, 2012, 06:30:26 AM »
A quick not regarding the travel to Ehrwald. We see that Art & JJ arrived late in the evening and had to wait until 06:30 before they were allowed to leave.

The next two teams probably managed to catch a late train from Innsbrück to Garmisch-Partenkirchen (REX 5432 at 20:48-21:59) and then spent the night in Gramisch before boarding the first train in the morning RB 5470 06:37-07:01. This matches the footage from their arrival where one can see the station clock showing just after 7.

The last teams got stuck in Innsbrück for the night and took the first morning train, also via Gramish, which arrived at 08:28.

Offline apskip

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #127 on: March 23, 2012, 04:26:36 PM »
I have taken a deeper look at the flights from Frankfurt or Munich via Istanbul or Moscow to Baku. My starting assumption is that teams will be bunched reasonably close together, so World Race Productions would have no need to slow down the lead teams with unusual pit stop length. I am estimating teams might have finished leg 5 around 11am to noon and been released from the pit stop between 11pm and midnight. It takes perhaps 4 hours to drive to Frankfurt and perhaps 2 hours to Munich, so what would they find?

Here are the better flights from Frankfurt to Istanbul to Baku:
TK1598 0745 1128 TK334 1500 1945
LH612 1330 2100 nonstop

Here are the better flights from Munich to Istanbul to Baku:
TK1638 0730 1103 TK334 1500 1945
TK1636 1155 1736 TK338 2230 0410+1

Here is a flight from Munich to Moscow-SVO to Baku:
SV2323 1225 1730 SV1852 2335 0025+1

This suggests that unless a team is released after 5am (making the TK1638/TK334 combination untenable) they should go to Munich because that combination is equivalent to TK1598/TK334 from Frankfurt, with less risk from driving half as long.

Offline theschnauzers

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #128 on: March 23, 2012, 04:50:56 PM »
apskip, would teams necessarily drive to either? Production could control things by having them take trains (as, IIRC, they have done in past legs in Germany when the next leg was outside of the European Alps.
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Offline apskip

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #129 on: March 24, 2012, 08:24:21 AM »
the schnauzers,

You are quite right, so I have summarized the most relevant train trips from Fussen to both Frankfurt Airport and to Munich Airport. To Frankfurt is complicated, as there are 2 to 4 separate trains involved. I am not going into the details of that (those that want or need it can find them on German Rail), but here are the relevant trips:



601a - 702a 717a - 840a 851a - 1101a

706a - 857a 936a - 1206p

806a - 914a 938a - 945a 1003a - 106p

905a - 1057a 1103a - 123p 135p 206p

1006a - 1052a 1115a - 1135a 1203p - 306p

To Munich the situation is a bit better, but even there 3 legs (including one for 2 minutes) are required for the 3 hour trip (not 2 hours as previously assumed for driving):

601a - 708a 715a - 808a 819a - 821a 831a- 906a

702a - 857a 905p 955p

806a - 1005a walk 10 minutes to S-bahn 1023a - 1106

905a - 957a 1006a - 1109a


It looks to me that the rail approach will have major waiting time from pit stop release to the first train of the day. If it were a decision up to me, I would take a car despite the fact that I have rented a car once in several decades for travel within Europe, strongly preferring the train trips.


Online Jimmer

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #130 on: March 24, 2012, 12:53:58 PM »
But as we saw in Leg 5, driving would clearly have been a better choice but TAR still chose trains.

Offline apskip

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #131 on: March 24, 2012, 05:37:20 PM »
nvm
« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 05:47:19 PM by apskip »

Offline apskip

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #132 on: March 24, 2012, 05:46:56 PM »
Jimmer25,

It's possible you missed the explanation for that (see below). WRP elected trains so they could drastically cut back the lead of the leading teams with the Hours of Operation in Ehrwald. I suppose they could have done the same with cars, but Art and JJ definitely would have been able to get there ahead of when the HOO took effect

My post #105 in this thread stated that:
"All this contrasts with a predictable 6 hours from Torino to Fussen by car, arriving around 0700 for Art and JJ and 0900 for Rachel and David. The unknown is the weather on that day. If driving conditions were below the best required for those mountain roads, then I would have ordered all teams to fly. Maybe they were given the choice, most unusual for the Amazing Race but World Race Productions does try to be unpredictable.
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Offline littlewop

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #133 on: March 25, 2012, 11:51:30 AM »
I have taken a deeper look at the flights from Frankfurt or Munich via Istanbul or Moscow to Baku. My starting assumption is that teams will be bunched reasonably close together, so World Race Productions would have no need to slow down the lead teams with unusual pit stop length. I am estimating teams might have finished leg 5 around 11am to noon and been released from the pit stop between 11pm and midnight. It takes perhaps 4 hours to drive to Frankfurt and perhaps 2 hours to Munich, so what would they find?

Here are the better flights from Frankfurt to Istanbul to Baku:
TK1598 0745 1128 TK334 1500 1945
LH612 1330 2100 nonstop

Here are the better flights from Munich to Istanbul to Baku:
TK1638 0730 1103 TK334 1500 1945
TK1636 1155 1736 TK338 2230 0410+1

Here is a flight from Munich to Moscow-SVO to Baku:
SV2323 1225 1730 SV1852 2335 0025+1

This suggests that unless a team is released after 5am (making the TK1638/TK334 combination untenable) they should go to Munich because that combination is equivalent to TK1598/TK334 from Frankfurt, with less risk from driving half as long.

In the previews it shows Vanessa/Ralph reading the pit start clue.  It does not look like it is 11pm to midnight.  How does this new info fit into the transportation estimations?

Offline apskip

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #134 on: March 25, 2012, 12:56:32 PM »
littlewop,

If trains are used, you can see that the first one at 601am toward either Frankfurt or Munich should not be impacted unless the pit stop time is longer than 18 hours.

If self-driving is used, then here are the implications:
if Vanessa/Ralph do not get released on or before 2am, they will not make the first flight combination from Frankfurt to Baku.
If they do not get released on or before 4am, they will not make the first flight combination from Munich to Baku.


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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #135 on: March 25, 2012, 03:02:25 PM »
Apskip,

A while up, you said that teams checked in between 1100-1200, but Dave and Rachel said they were getting a 12:50 tour for Hohenschwangau Castle, so I think you initial estimates were wrong.

Offline apskip

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #136 on: March 25, 2012, 03:52:20 PM »
JImmer25,

You are right and I have to be off by about 2 hours for the later teams. I think Art&JJ will still be before 12 noon.

Offline apskip

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #137 on: March 25, 2012, 09:49:06 PM »
I am having some problems with the flight combination cited on this telecast. The connection in Istanbul to TK338 2230 0410+1 was identified earlier. However, the flight from Munich to Istanbul does not have proper connect time:

TK1636 1836 2202

There are no alternatives for either flight that get teams to Baku before daybreak.

Offline georgiapeach

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #138 on: March 25, 2012, 10:30:31 PM »
What day are you using?
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Offline georgiapeach

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #139 on: March 26, 2012, 02:11:46 AM »
I am having some problems with the flight combination cited on this telecast. The connection in Istanbul to TK338 2230 0410+1 was identified earlier. However, the flight from Munich to Istanbul does not have proper connect time:

TK1636 1836 2202

There are no alternatives for either flight that get teams to Baku before daybreak.

Using Dec 7 I get this:

IST Istanbul TK 1636  Turkish Airlines
 
Scheduled Departure: Scheduled Arrival:
6:20 PM - Wed 07-Dec-2011  9:55 PM - Wed 07-Dec-2011 
Actual Departure:  Actual Arrival: 
6:36 PM - Wed 07-Dec-2011  10:02 PM - Wed 07-Dec-2011 
 

So a tight but not impossible connection for TK 338:

DEPARTURE  ARRIVAL 
Scheduled Departure: Scheduled Arrival:
11:30 PM - Wed 07-Dec-2011  4:10 AM - Thu 08-Dec-2011 
Actual Departure:   
11:35 PM - Wed 07-Dec-2011 
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Offline apskip

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #140 on: March 26, 2012, 07:09:20 AM »
Peach you are right. I pulled the wrong number from a table. It should be actual departure of 2335 from Istanbul. However, we agree on the departure from Munich of 1836 arrival Istanbul 2202. This gives ample time for a connection.

Offline apskip

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #141 on: March 26, 2012, 07:26:24 AM »
The release time of Art/JJ at 848am is another example of World Race Productions engineering the pit stop time to assure a bunching at Munich airport. I believe this to be a 21 hour pit stop. The effect it had versus a shorter one was to prevent Art/JJ from having the time to drive for 4 hours to Frankfurt for the nonstop flight leaving at 1330. Since the next-earlier flight to the one they ended up on was at 1115 from Munich, they could not even make that. They had to wait at Munich airport as all the other teams arrived. 

There is some fascinating reading in the arrival/departure of flight connections through Moscow. Here is a connection through Domodedovo:
Dec. 7 MUC DME 1305 1920 connecting DME GYD J2853 2338 0228+1. None of the other teams could have made this, but Art/JJ certainly had a shot at it.

Offline Plaidmoon

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #142 on: March 26, 2012, 07:50:16 AM »
The release time of Art/JJ at 848am is another example of World Race Productions engineering the pit stop time to assure a bunching at Munich airport. I believe this to be a 21 hour pit stop. The effect it had versus a shorter one was to prevent Art/JJ from having the time to drive for 4 hours to Frankfurt for the nonstop flight leaving at 1330. Since the next-earlier flight to the one they ended up on was at 1115 from Munich, they could not even make that. They had to wait at Munich airport as all the other teams arrived. 

There is some fascinating reading in the arrival/departure of flight connections through Moscow. Here is a connection through Domodedovo:
Dec. 7 MUC DME 1305 1920 connecting DME GYD J2853 2338 0228+1. None of the other teams could have made this, but Art/JJ certainly had a shot at it.

Even if Art and JJ had gotten the earlier flight through Moscow, they still would have been held up by the HOO at the Temple Ateshgah, although I suspect that was arranged by the TAR production staff just to be doubly safe.

Offline georgiapeach

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #143 on: March 26, 2012, 11:01:21 AM »
And don't you need a Visa in order to change planes in Moscow? or is that only if you change airports?

I think production just told them they had to use Munich.
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Offline TARFansurvivor

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #144 on: March 27, 2012, 11:51:12 AM »
Do we know anything about flight possibilities from Baku to Tanzania????
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Offline georgiapeach

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #145 on: March 27, 2012, 11:57:01 AM »
It is all around here somewhere. Since we have the sighting in Nairobi we know they went thru there, but we do NOT know if that is heading in or heading out.
"Our fans are pretty good. They don't give away too much. Sometimes people love dropping spoilers, but our fans are good. They tend to do it in such a way that doesn't ruin it for fans who don't want to know."--Phil Keoghan

Offline apskip

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #146 on: March 27, 2012, 02:10:12 PM »
Post #59 states:

GYD NBO on maybe Dec. 8, 2011
QR975 GYD DOH 1800 1945 connecting QR534 2030 0610+1

TK333 GYD IST 1330 1430    connecting TK607 1835 0210+1

EK256 GYD DXB 1845 2135 connecting KQ3110235+1 0645+1         

There are dozens more possibilities, but these are the best. There are no other international airports except Kilimanjaro anywhere in the area. I believe that flights into the area of Kenya/Tanzania and out of it will both be via Nairobi. I am going to hypothesize the options.

Offline apskip

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #147 on: March 27, 2012, 03:04:06 PM »
There are two major airports in Kerala, the state that is the southwestern edge of India, Kochi (formerly Cochin) and Trivandrum serving Thiruvananthapuram.

Here are the flight combinations connecting through Mumbai to get from Nairobi to either one of those departing Dec. 10 or Dec. 11:

12/10 NBO BOM KQ202 1755 0156+1 connecting to 12/11 BOM COK 9W2111 0535 0717

12/11 NBO BOM KQ202 1835 0308+1 connecting to 12/12 BOM COK 9W2111 0535 0722

12/10 NBO BOM KQ202 1755 0156+1 connecting to 12/11 BOM TRV AI667 0653 0928

12/11 NBO BOM KQ202 1835 0308+1 connecting to 12/12 BOM TRV AI667 0653 0858

Offline apskip

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #148 on: March 27, 2012, 03:19:18 PM »
I have also considered the possible departure of teams from Kilimanjaro Airport (code JRO) as a back end or front end to Nairobi. there are no good connections to south India better than through Nairobi. Here are the flight possibilities:

Dec. 10 JRO NBO PW727 1530 1625

Dec. 11 JRO NBO PW727 1530 1645
           JRO NBO 5H458  1413 1500

For the Dec. 8 flights shown above, here is the one connecting flight from NBO to JRO that makes sense:

PW724 0800+1 0900+1
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 03:24:19 PM by apskip »

Offline georgiapeach

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Re: TAR 20 Transport
« Reply #149 on: March 27, 2012, 04:05:49 PM »
It is all around here somewhere. Since we have the sighting in Nairobi we know they went thru there, but we do NOT know if that is heading in or heading out.

Actually, since the airport meltdown is being shown in the promos, I think we can assume this is on the way TO Tanzania, right? ???
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