Author Topic: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS  (Read 55591 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Chateau d If

  • Captain of the Obvious
  • TAR Detectives
  • RFF Frantic Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4721
  • Feel the Bern
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #75 on: July 10, 2011, 02:08:50 AM »
How could you have missed TLV to ATL ?  :snicker:

And Leipzig to ATL is a World Airways charter.   :res:
Bernie Sanders:  "We only go around once, we may as well make history as we go around."
Hold Me Closer Bernie Sanders

Offline apskip

  • Geographer Extraordinaire
  • TAR Detectives
  • RFF Frantic Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 6190
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #76 on: July 10, 2011, 06:58:38 AM »
How could you have missed TLV to ATL ?  :snicker:

And Leipzig to ATL is a World Airways charter.   :res:

Chateau,
You must have missed the disclaimer that my analysis was not absolutely comprehensive due to taking just one day of the week and because I lost a few by not being able to read my own notes. I did know that Leipzig was a World Airways 4-digit flight number from Leipzig and I did put a question mark after it. I also put a question mark after Liege, which with other international service from Brussels nearby should not be likely to have nonstops to the U.S. East Coast but did have one to Atlanta.

You may also see that I dismissed as improbable any flights from Dubai, Kuwait, Damascus, Riyadh, Doha, Beirut, Jeddah, Muscat or Beirut from your list. I believe all of those are too far away for a traditional nonstop finale flight to the U.S. East Coast (even though some of those do have nonstop flights in the the target destinations) to be worth thinking about. However, you presented your speculation and I have countered with mine, but if you allow connecting flights in your thinking (you do and I don't), then all of your origins are possible.   


Offline redskevin88

  • RFF Frantic Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1989
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #77 on: July 10, 2011, 08:12:16 AM »
We can safely rule out the following cities...

Amman
Damascus
Riyadh
Doha
Beirut
Jeddah


Offline Chateau d If

  • Captain of the Obvious
  • TAR Detectives
  • RFF Frantic Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4721
  • Feel the Bern
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #78 on: July 10, 2011, 01:38:07 PM »
The timing of the recent tweets from Atlanta suggest that Teams have arrived on flight DL 37 that left CDG at 9:20 AM - Sun 10-Jul-2011 and arrived at ATL at 1:06 PM - Sun 10-Jul-2011 (scheduled for 1:30 pm)
Bernie Sanders:  "We only go around once, we may as well make history as we go around."
Hold Me Closer Bernie Sanders

Offline apskip

  • Geographer Extraordinaire
  • TAR Detectives
  • RFF Frantic Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 6190
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #79 on: July 10, 2011, 03:08:52 PM »
Here are all the flights that have arrived in Atlanta today (starting with Chateau's favorite from Tel Aviv):

TLV DL153 522a
AMS DL135 1219p
FRA DL15 149p
SNN OAE428 1037a
CDG DL37 106p, AF682 217p
Leipzig that world Airways charter 8505 again, 742a
LGW DL17 134p
MAD DL109 135p
ZRH DL67 224p
MUC DL131 225p
CPH DL69 304p
plus flights over the Atlantic or soon to arrive ATL from Stuttgart, Rome, Dusseldorf (6 hours late), Milan, and London-Heathrow.   

My opinion is that the AMS origin and the CDG origin are the most consistent with that tweet, since the tweeter did not identify whether he/she was at a gate or after U.S.Customs. If World Race Productions wanted to be really sneaky and had the F3 teams depart from Tel Aviv, a 522a arrival could have been difficult to spot.
 
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 06:43:49 PM by apskip »


Offline Chateau d If

  • Captain of the Obvious
  • TAR Detectives
  • RFF Frantic Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4721
  • Feel the Bern
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #80 on: July 10, 2011, 03:27:27 PM »
Here are all the flights that have arrived in Atlanta today (starting with Chateau's favorite from Tel Aviv):

TLV DL153 522a
AMS DL135 1219p
FRA DL15 945a, LH444 1159a
SNN OAE428 1037a
CDG DL27 106p, AF682 217p
Leipzig that world Airways charter 8505 again, 742a
LGW DL17 134p
MAD DL109 135p
ZRH DL67 224p
MUC DL131 225p
CPH DL69 304p
plus flights over the Atlantic or soon to arrive ATL from Stuttgart, Rome, Dusseldorf (6 hours late), Milan, and London-Heathrow.   

My opinion is that the AMS origin and the CDG origin are the most consistent with that tweet, since the tweeter did not identify whether he/she was at a gate or after U.S.Customs. If World Race Productions wanted to be really sneaky and had the F3 teams depart from Tel Aviv, a 522a arrival could have been difficult to spot.

Check your sources, the flight form CDG is DL 37 not DL 27
The FRA DL15 actually takes off at 9:45 am and lands at 1:45 pm
Also, what about
DXB at 5:45 am  ?
MEX at 5:43 am  ?



Bernie Sanders:  "We only go around once, we may as well make history as we go around."
Hold Me Closer Bernie Sanders

Offline theschnauzers

  • TAR Detectives
  • RFF Frantic Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 3273
  • An original TARfly
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #81 on: July 10, 2011, 03:28:28 PM »
The timing of the recent tweets from Atlanta suggest that Teams have arrived on flight DL 37 that left CDG at 9:20 AM - Sun 10-Jul-2011 and arrived at ATL at 1:06 PM - Sun 10-Jul-2011 (scheduled for 1:30 pm)
What was it I said yesterday?
-- theschnauzers

Offline apskip

  • Geographer Extraordinaire
  • TAR Detectives
  • RFF Frantic Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 6190
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #82 on: July 10, 2011, 04:46:30 PM »
Here are all the flights that have arrived in Atlanta today (starting with Chateau's favorite from Tel Aviv):

TLV DL153 522a
AMS DL135 1219p
FRA DL15 945a, LH444 1159a
SNN OAE428 1037a
CDG DL27 106p, AF682 217p
Leipzig that world Airways charter 8505 again, 742a
LGW DL17 134p
MAD DL109 135p
ZRH DL67 224p
MUC DL131 225p
CPH DL69 304p
plus flights over the Atlantic or soon to arrive ATL from Stuttgart, Rome, Dusseldorf (6 hours late), Milan, and London-Heathrow.   

My opinion is that the AMS origin and the CDG origin are the most consistent with that tweet, since the tweeter did not identify whether he/she was at a gate or after U.S.Customs. If World Race Productions wanted to be really sneaky and had the F3 teams depart from Tel Aviv, a 522a arrival could have been difficult to spot.

Check your sources, the flight form CDG is DL 37 not DL 27
The FRA DL15 actually takes off at 9:45 am and lands at 1:45 pm
Also, what about
DXB at 5:45 am  ?
MEX at 5:43 am  ?

Chateau,

Is Mexico City in Europe (even extended Europe which goes as far as Tel Aviv by my definition? Not exactly. Same for Dubai.
You are correct that I have a typo in transferring information for DL37. I also made a mistake on DK15 and LH444 by reporting their departure times rather than the arrival times which were what was needed (however, this does not impact either of the 2 primary flights which might have been the one used from CDG or AMS).   

Offline apskip

  • Geographer Extraordinaire
  • TAR Detectives
  • RFF Frantic Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 6190
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #83 on: July 10, 2011, 04:57:39 PM »
I decided to go the extra mile and examine the hypothesis of where in extended Europe and the Middle East flights could ahve originated and landed in Paris CDG or Amsterdam Schiphol by 8am today. Here is the list for CDG arrivals:

TLV LY229
AMM AF3887
BEY ME209
RUH (Riyadh) SV143
Brussels SN3631 (but why would anyone want to go through CDG when you can go nonstop?)
MAD VY8202 (same comment)
NCE AF7713

Here is the list for AMS arrival, which is much larger due to KLM's Cityhopper flight program from many large cities):
BAH KL445
DXB KL428
SVO KL902
BRE KL1750
HAM KL1776
BER KL1818
DUS KL1852
CGN KL1804
CPH KL424
ATH KL1572
NUE (Nuremburg) KL1880
GOT (Gothenberg) KL1152
OTP (Bucharest) KL1372
AAL (Aalborg, Denmark) KL1314
KRS (Kristiansand, Norway) KL1201
BOD (Bordeaux) KL1314
OSL (Oslo) KL1212
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 06:03:32 PM by apskip »

Offline Chateau d If

  • Captain of the Obvious
  • TAR Detectives
  • RFF Frantic Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4721
  • Feel the Bern
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #84 on: July 10, 2011, 07:05:46 PM »
Quote
Is Mexico City in Europe (even extended Europe which goes as far as Tel Aviv by my definition? Not exactly. Same for Dubai.

Apskip, when you write :

Quote
Here are all the flights that have arrived in Atlanta today (starting with Chateau's favorite from Tel Aviv):

That means you are listing all the flights that have arrived in Atlanta today ...
If you are filtering the list based on the being in Europe you should say so. 

The reason MEX and DBX are important incoming airports is that routes that originate from Europe could connect through these airports.

Please see my post of 3:38 pm (eastern time) where I present the possibility of flight DL 37 being the one used by Teams today.  You reiterated that possibility 30 minutes later in a post of your own at 4:08 pm.  You may want to read the thread before you present information as your own.

Also, regarding your list of flights connecting with DL 37 to get to ATL, I hope you were aware that I had already posted a list in the Speculation thread for flights connecting in CDG and using the DL 37 flight.   You may want to take a look at that before you generate a list of your own.

  • Brussels SN3631  I already listed this one, it's the BRU that arrives at 7:30 am in CDG.
  • MAD VY8202  I already listed this one, it's the MAD that arrives at 7:55 am in CDG.
  • NCE AF7713   I already listed this one, it's the NCE that arrives at 8:00 am in CDG.

From your list, the following are ruled out because they don't exist or there are alternate routes that would get a Team to ATL earlier even if they left later from the exact same location.

  • TLV LY229   "Sorry, we could not find the flight LY 229 in our system." (flightstates.com)
  • AMM AF3887  This is not valid for consideration because Teams would not select it because they could have landed 20 minutes sooner (based on Schedule) by taking AF 1306 leaving CDG at 7:25 am and arriving at 8:35 am in DUS.  Then taking DL 25 leaving DUS at 9:20 am and arriving at 1:10 pm in ATL.
Bernie Sanders:  "We only go around once, we may as well make history as we go around."
Hold Me Closer Bernie Sanders


Offline Chateau d If

  • Captain of the Obvious
  • TAR Detectives
  • RFF Frantic Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4721
  • Feel the Bern
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #85 on: July 10, 2011, 09:21:56 PM »
Apskip, I think your identification of AMS as the incoming flight may be the winner after all  :-[

I had ignored the tweet found by Plaidmoon that places the Teams in Helsinki because I was filtering for an early morning start:

Here's an interesting tweet. Hope it's true!

Omg the amazing race is in Helsinki!!! I love that show, wish they would still show it in the uk!!! #fb
48 minutes ago

http://twitter.com/#!/cyberskatergirl

With that tweet in mind we can imagine that the route taken by the Teams was:

KL 1164 leaving HEL at 6:35 am and arriving AMS at 8:05 am
DL 175 leaving AMS at 9:00 am and arriving ATL at 12:55 pm  (actual time was 12:19 pm)
Bernie Sanders:  "We only go around once, we may as well make history as we go around."
Hold Me Closer Bernie Sanders

Offline apskip

  • Geographer Extraordinaire
  • TAR Detectives
  • RFF Frantic Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 6190
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #86 on: July 10, 2011, 10:01:00 PM »
I failed to detect that the international to international minimum connect time for AMS is 50 minutes, not the 1 hour I assumed. That resulted in my not picking up a 805am arrival time in AMS from Helsinki and several other places (Basel  WX5200, Strasbourg YS 5284 and Stavanger KL1976) as OK for connecting to DL175. That is a connection that I personally would not book for Schiphol Airport if I depended on it. If teams had to make it and missed, they would have to take either:

DL239 which arrived ATL 234p or
KL621 which arrived ATL 845p

Pillowpal, ATL is not the final city until we actually spot F3 teams there. AR19 is not over for RFF until it is over.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 10:23:18 PM by apskip »

Offline Plaidmoon

  • TAR Detectives
  • RFF Frantic Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1807
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #87 on: July 12, 2011, 12:36:06 AM »
Apskip, I think your identification of AMS as the incoming flight may be the winner after all  :-[

I had ignored the tweet found by Plaidmoon that places the Teams in Helsinki because I was filtering for an early morning start:

Here's an interesting tweet. Hope it's true!

Omg the amazing race is in Helsinki!!! I love that show, wish they would still show it in the uk!!! #fb
48 minutes ago

http://twitter.com/#!/cyberskatergirl

With that tweet in mind we can imagine that the route taken by the Teams was:

KL 1164 leaving HEL at 6:35 am and arriving AMS at 8:05 am
DL 175 leaving AMS at 9:00 am and arriving ATL at 12:55 pm  (actual time was 12:19 pm)

I was kind of discounting Helsinki myself, as I figured that the TAR production staff would want to have the teams arrive in the morning rather than in the afternoon. As Apskip pointed out, if you miss the tight connection on that set of flights, there are a couple of flights arriving around 2:30 - 3:00 PM and everything else arrives after 5:30 PM, which would probably ensure a sundown low light conclusion to the race and I doubt if they wanted that. However, since the teams arrived at around the right time for the 12:55 PM flight, I think Helsinki remains a possibility, though probably only about a 30%-40% possibility.

It's too bad that the tweeter in Helsinki isn't responding to my questions. A little information from her could clear this up quickly.

Offline Prophet

  • TarKonian Game Host
  • RFF Frantic Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 8147
  • ∞∞
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #88 on: July 12, 2011, 11:51:01 AM »
I think Chateau is working on that and probably has a better feel for it but these are the options that I personally found:

DL 15 from Frankfurt

DL 109   from Madrid or

DL 11 from London.
Physics alone is not enough.

Those who forget history are sure to repeat it.

Offline georgiapeach

  • Amazing Race Moderator
  • RFF Moderator
  • I Live at RFF
  • *****
  • Posts: 46795
  • TAR Detective
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #89 on: July 12, 2011, 12:12:43 PM »
Chateau will be the man...but there was a possible Paris flight as well...
RFF's Golden Rule:
Have RESPECT for each other, regardless of opinion. This of course includes no flaming/insulting other users and/or their posts.


Offline Chateau d If

  • Captain of the Obvious
  • TAR Detectives
  • RFF Frantic Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4721
  • Feel the Bern
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #90 on: July 12, 2011, 01:35:24 PM »
Well I'm trying!

Recent analysis points to Paris as the winner (Paris, Guatemala City, and San Jose are the incoming flights that fit the time frame).

But, an extremely long Customs line would put Amsterdam back in there  :duno:

Also, it would help to know for sure if the Flightstats 'actual arrival times' are runway time or gate time.  Anybody know which?
Bernie Sanders:  "We only go around once, we may as well make history as we go around."
Hold Me Closer Bernie Sanders

Offline Neobie

  • Amazing Detective
  • TAR Detectives
  • RFF Frantic Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 2218
  • For the winners go to spoil!
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #91 on: July 12, 2011, 02:04:51 PM »
Tried an experiment a few weeks ago, and I believe "Actual Departure Time" refers to the plane leaving the gate, and "Actual Arrival Time" refers to touch-down on tarmac.
Found out that Neobie in Chinese means "f*king awesome"! No, really. Look it up!

kristenleea

  • Guest
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #92 on: July 12, 2011, 11:35:08 PM »
Hi! I was the Girl in the Train at the Atlanta Airport! It was So COOL seeing the "Team" Guy and Girl along with the Camera Guy, Sound Guy and someone else ignoring me on his phone...Especially Ignoring me after I asked if they were on the Amazing Race! Craziness! I have been enjoying reading the Forums, but wish I had out my camera phone to take Video! DUH!

kristenleea

  • Guest
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #93 on: July 12, 2011, 11:45:14 PM »

 I was in the D terminal, and they were already in the train....I arrived between 1-2.....So, they must have arrived in the E gate.
I've done some research, and the flights arriving in the E gate around the same time as me are:

Barcelona
London Gatwick
Frankfurt
Paris
LA
Madrid

(All Delta Flights)

Panama City
San Jose, CR
Guadalajara
Guatemala City

Offline Chateau d If

  • Captain of the Obvious
  • TAR Detectives
  • RFF Frantic Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4721
  • Feel the Bern
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #94 on: July 12, 2011, 11:54:15 PM »
 :bigwelcome :rodeo :pirate7

Great to have you kristanleea!

Watch out it gets crazy here!   :snakes:


Now....  try to remember everything you can ...

Oh, 1st question:  What was the thing you saw "race" on?
Bernie Sanders:  "We only go around once, we may as well make history as we go around."
Hold Me Closer Bernie Sanders

kristenleea

  • Guest
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #95 on: July 13, 2011, 12:14:45 AM »
RACE was in Yellow Tape on the Camera.I should say...The Tape was Yellow with Big Black Letters that said :RACE with I think 98?

Offline georgiapeach

  • Amazing Race Moderator
  • RFF Moderator
  • I Live at RFF
  • *****
  • Posts: 46795
  • TAR Detective
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #96 on: July 13, 2011, 04:09:31 AM »
:bigwelcome kristenleea!!! We are glad you are here!! Thanks so much for the info!!
RFF's Golden Rule:
Have RESPECT for each other, regardless of opinion. This of course includes no flaming/insulting other users and/or their posts.

Offline apskip

  • Geographer Extraordinaire
  • TAR Detectives
  • RFF Frantic Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 6190
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #97 on: October 03, 2011, 08:58:19 AM »
The flight from Taipei to Jakarta was reported to be the next one at 830am. The first flight was CI 5855 departing at 805am, arriving at 1205pm. There was another China Airlines flight scheduled for about 40 minutes later, which I don;t think the teams were on.

Offline apskip

  • Geographer Extraordinaire
  • TAR Detectives
  • RFF Frantic Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 6190
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #98 on: October 03, 2011, 09:03:35 AM »
In examining after-the-fact the train options, they are identical to what we researched before-hand. Krabbe found the official Indonesian rail timetable (not partial ones like I was using before that). His work shows that the only departure from Gambir station close to 5pm was the KI Bima train departing at 1700 and arriving Yogyakarta at a middle-of-the-night 0047. Since teams did arrive in blackness, it could have been any time until 5am, but had logically to have been at 0047. From there the drive to teh Jomblang Caves would have left them many hours to kill before they could enter the Caves, but that would mean the equivalent of a Hours of Operation delay and the arrival of teams at Jomblang Caves did not appear to be very compact.

 

Offline apskip

  • Geographer Extraordinaire
  • TAR Detectives
  • RFF Frantic Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 6190
Re: AR19 Primary TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS
« Reply #99 on: October 05, 2011, 10:57:05 AM »
FLIGHT POSSIBILITIES for Leg 4, Yogyakarta to Phuket

This is an exemplary case study of the complexity of air travel options in a dense corridor like Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand. The situation is fairly common, a range of flights from point A to point B (Yogyakarta to Jakarta in this case), others from point B to points C, D and E (Singapore, Kuala Lumpur and Bangkok), then a final set of flights from points C, D and E to point F, the destination of Phuket. It could have been more complicated if I added Penang as an intermediate point, but I decided to keep it "simple" and not do that.

There are different ways of presenting this information, but I decided that the most efficient was to used the intermediate points as the name for the routes representing different combinations of flights. That gives me Bangkok 1 to 3, Kuala Lumpur 1 to 8 and Singapore 1 to 4. So that means that all routes start with YOG to CGK, B routes go CGK to BKK and then BKK to HKT, C routes go CGK to KUL, then KUL to HKT and D routes go CGK to SIN and then SIN HKT. Here is my spreadsheet of this information (please note that there are many flights at in-between times left out, as they are quite numerous; what I show is that last flight that can make a 50 minute connection; also for the few that are publically available the actual flight times for June 24, 2011 were used):

B Routes  YOG CGK              CGK BKK                   BKK HKT
       JT561 0700 0800     GA866 0945 1310      FD3029 1440 1600
      GA205 0940 1045    TG434 1238 1614       PG277  1710 1833
       JT559 1140 1240     GA868 1250 1615      TG221  1819 1945

C Routes  YOG CGK              CGK KUL                    KUL HKT
       GA201 0600 0700     AK381  0835 1130     AK826 1240 1300
       JT561  0700 0800     GA820  0850 1150     AK826 1240 1300
       GA203 0800 0900     MH710 1110 1422     QR624 1523 1550
       QZ7343 0825 0925   QZ7692 1130 1430   QR624 1523 1550
       GA205 0940 1045     JT282   1230 1530     AK828 2040 2105
       JT559  1140 1240     QZ7694 1400 1700    AK828 2040 2105
       QZ7341 1245 1345   AK385  1450 1750     AK828 2040 2105
       JT563  2000 2100     MH720  1620 1941     AK828 2040 2105


D Routes  YOG CGK              CGK SIN                     SIN HKT
       GA201  0600 0705     JT150  0825 1105     FD3525 1315 1400     
       JT561  0700 0800      GA824 0855 1130     FD3525 1315 1400
       JT561  0700 0800      SQ953 0921 1202     FD3525 1315 1400
       GA203  0800 0905     QZ9492 0950 1247  SQ5054 1320 1410
       JT553  0920 1020      SQ957 1120 1400     MI756   1632 1710
       JT553  0920 1020      GA826 1120 1406     MI756   1632 1710
       QZ7341 1245 1345   GA830 1455 1759      3K537   2105 2125 
       QZ7341 1245 1345    VF204  1505 1812     3K537   2015 2125