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Author Topic: Ranking the Teams -- A basis for comparing all teams TAR 1-24 (current)  (Read 44885 times)

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DavidJunior

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The thing with these is one we need to all (myself included) remember that the requirements for being a strong team are different each season.

Things like remembering when judging seasons 1-4 that teams with great placement averages had to deal with the possibility of another team getting in first not to superior racing but due to their being a fast forward available in all but the final leg.  One could certainly argue that that really handicaps teams from season 1-4.  Then you have the fact that seasons 1-5 allowed one racer to do (though not all teams did some very much split their tasks and responsibilities during the race) which makes it difficult to compare seasons 6-16 to earlier races.  Then you have seasons 13 and up that for the most part have removed what was one of the biggest factors of the race and that is the ability to drive and navigate long distance through various countries.  Then you have things like the Yield or U-Turn where you can deliberately impede the progress of your fellow racers (something seasons 1-4 didn't have).  Then you have your competitors, and let me say that no season has across the board strong racers, each has usually have 4 - 5 teams that simple suck.  And I think its actually gotten worse.  Look at seasons 13-15.  Those seasons have the most penalties, teams that get eliminated through their own carelessness, and choices that just boggle the mind. 

David Junior on some of your points.

If season 5 had to require the women to do half the tasks, I think it would have ended close to the same.  Christie seemed the most driven of the women (in couples), their were no strong male teams at all (so no worries about that), in fact I think it a lot about that seasons that teams like Kami & Karli (who over all just sucked as racers), Charla & Mirna (who managed some flights well, but also had huge problems), and Linda and Karen (who had drive god bless them, but my god they weren't good racers) lasted so late in the race. 

Nick & Starr didn't face strong competition from many teams.  This was a season that is often considered the idiots seasons.  Toni & Dallas (I loved them) killed themselves, Ken & Tina (a good team), Terence & Sarah (Sorry but they weren't that good, probably due to their inability to work well together), Then you had the idiot Frats (one of the most incompetent teams the race has ever had).

Then you had Meghan & Cheyne and lets face it, we have a season were three teams literally take themselves out of the race (Mika & Canaan, Zev & Justin, The Globetrotters), another team taken out due to the inability to perform either RB (and one of them shouldn't have been that hard), a father/son team that was never that competitive.  That leaves you with Sam & Dan (who were good, but erratic and their ability to work together under pressure was a huge flaw), and Brian & Ericka who truly only made it due to two other teams self destructing (similar to what happen in getting the Frats in the final three of season 13).


although you are very right in the fact that in both Seasons 13 and 15, a majority of the teams ENDED with egg on their faces.

the fact that they had better all around races is what I'm looking at.

Season 13: Yes, 3/6 of the F6 teams can easily be considered blundering idiots, but they still raced pretty darn well.
Kelly and Christie - although they were one of the worst teams of all time in reading clues, they were strong, passionate, and in certain cases smart.  They were only eliminated because Kenny/Tina decided to help the weaker Frat Boy team first. (which is a very good race strategy)>
Terence and Sarah - had some communication issues throughout the race, but also had all top 4 finishes (only 1 was 4th), until they went for the FF and landed 5th, which unfortunately for them was last and elimination.
Toni and Dallas - the only mistake Toni ever made was letting Dallas do that last Roadblock, and his mistake was being careless and leaving his fanny pack behind.  They were the only other team outside of Ken/Tina to beat Nick/Starr for a 1st place finish that season, as well.
Andrew and Dan - took the term bumbling idiots to a new level.  But, they did make a steady, consistent climb up the rankings.  And they flourished in their "under the radar", "back of the pack" positioning.  Although they got some amazing luck in the last half of the race, you definitely need some competitive drive to start off near last every leg and still survive to the end.
Ken and Tina - Perceived as the biggest competition for Nick and Starr.  And it definitely showed in their general finishing order.
Yes, the F6 teams basically gave Nick and Starr a free pass to the finish line, but not before giving them some decent competition before tripping all over themselves.

Season 15:
Zev and Justin - had it not been for the Passport blunder, they would've easily have made the F3, and probably would've given Meghan/Cheyne a run for their money.
Maria and Tiffany - an extremely lucky team, who I will proclaim to this day, did not deserve to make it past the first leg.  And I felt they went out in proper fashion.
Gary and Matt - although not the most driven and competitive team, they still were able to keep up with the "big boys" almost all the way to the end, and had they been a bit better with directions (and candelabras  :lol:), team "lucky" wouldn't have been so lucky.  And they were pretty decent competition through the first 2/3 of the race.
Flight Time and Big Easy - although I will be one of the first to admit that Big Easy is one of, if not the, biggest idiot in race history for quitting that simple Roadblock.  But, up until that point, they were BY FAR M/C's biggest competition.
Brian and Ericka - they were very very very lucky throughout the race.  Not the strongest, not the fastest, not the brightest, but they had the grit and determination to keep plugging away each leg.  And they always seemed to pull it out in the end.  And, they probably would've won had it not been for the untimely judging blunder.  Guess their luck ran out right at the end.
Sam and Dan - Bicker, bicker, whine, whine!  That's all they ever did.  But, they were super competitive, strong, quick, and not too dull.  They also, were sneaky and shifty when they needed to be, which is something I feel a good team should have.  Though I HATED them on their season, you can't deny that they were a good team.  (look how many "bickering" couples made it really far in other seasons)
Meghan and Cheyne - although they basically dominated their season, they still had to face some stiff competition throughout, they were just fortunate that, like Nick/Starr, their strongest competition unraveled near the end of the race.

Season 5:
Charla and Mirna - as you have said many a time, the only thing that they were good at was finding flights.  Honestly, if it wasn't for that fact, they probably wouldn't nearly as far as they did.  And on top of that, they went out because of a mistake they made on the thing they were supposedly so good at.
Kami and Karli - if you looked for "dumb blond" in the dictionary, a picture of them would show up.  The only thing that propelled them so far was their fitness and speed.
Linda and Karen - though they had the drive and the spirit, they weren't really that good of a team.  They were spared 7th due to Marshall/Lance injury.  And continued on mainly due to C/M flight problems, and Kami and Karli kicking the suck up a couple notches.
Brandon and Nicole - never really seemed like a factor throughout the race.  They were sorta just there.  And I feel this team would've been out earlier had Nicole actually done something.
Chip and Kim - Another team that didn't stand out too much for me, outside of (from what I remember) the show basically trying to cram them down our throats.  And again, had Kim actually done more than 1 Roadblock, they might not have fared AS well as they did.
Then you had 2 overweight brothers in 7th, a really old dating couple in 8th, another old guy and his daughter in 9th, and then two teams that- at least on paper- should've survived at least the first 3 to 5 legs coming in 10th and 11th respectively.
Colin and Christie basically had this race in the bag from Day 1, at least until their car blew a flat on the last leg.... (terrible luck if you ask me)

for me at least, M/C and N/S had to work throughout their season to make it to the end (which they did with ease), and win.  They were just fortunate in that some of their biggest competition kept shooting themselves in the foot along the way.
all Colin and Christie had to do was wait at the top whilst all the sucky teams fell off the pace, to cruise into the finals and win the million.  and they couldn't even pull that off.

Colin and Christie - strong? No doubt about it.  The strongest team on the race ever? I doubt it.
Nick and Starr - strongest team ever? eh, i felt there were stronger teams than them, but probably would've done just as well in S5
Meghan and Cheyne - I don't think they fit the label as strongest team ever either.  But, they too would've dominated in S5 as well

believe me, I don't think S13 and S15 were even close to the most competitive season ever, by any stretch of the imagination.  But, S5 doesn't pop up in my mind as a race that was full of competition and super strong teams either.


Offline almightyblue

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I have to seriously disagree about Charla & Mirna.  They raced incredibly poorly (especially in season 11).  Sure they made the final three but many teams that underperform make the final three.

When you break down the episodes and figure out the time to complete the days events Charla & Mirna were consistently one of the slowest teams.

They have two saving graces, that was the ability (on occasion to get help from locals, other times not at all as they can be very abrasive) and the ability to get themselves either good flights or bumped over others on those flights.

They are poor navigators, poor drivers, and didn't perform great on many tasks.

There is just no real evidence when either just taking simply things like Pit Stop Placement, taking time to complete the days tasks, ect that Charla & Mirna are even close to Eric & Danielle.  And Eric & Jeremy were a much, much stronger team then Eric & Danielle it's not even close according to the racers themselves.

Now I thank they had more to overcome and that many people like them, but the facts as presented on the show (again those can be in error, but its what we have to work with) don't present them as a strong team.  Except of course in arranging flights (in which they do seem to have very strong skills both in research and persuasion.

Basically, you're dismissing Charla & Mirna's strengths.  Yes, I agree they were never good on Physical tasks, but they made up for that with their travel skills and their ability to get help from the locals.  Against a decently strong team they're dead meat, but they have they ability to constantly beat above average opponents.

And yes, I will admit they ran horribly on the first four legs, but they got much better very quickly, and ran better than Eric & Danielle from that point out.  Yeah, E&D did better on the tasks, but Charla & Mirna killed them in every other aspect of the race, all of which are just as important as doing the actual tasks.  As for Eric & Danielle's "strength", I'll get to that in a moment...


I agree with mswood. Eric & Danielle may very well have been that season's strongest team (or tied with Dustin & Kandice and Rob & Amber), not counting their truly awful luck. This is why placement is not always a good indicator of racing skill. But what other truly objective measurement do we have?

No, just no.  They weren't even close to the same level as Rob & Amber and Dustin & Kandice, and this has to be the first time I've seen anyone ever suggest as much.  A strong team doesn't finish over 12 hours behind the lead team, twice.  A strong team doesn't need the most contrived equalizer in Amazing Race history to catch up to the lead teams.  A strong team doesn't make three critical airport mistakes that should have gotten them eliminated, mistakes such as:

On leg 6, Eric & Danielle get the idea to go up to the airline office instead of waiting for the ticket counter to open up.  Great, only they tell all the other teams their idea, leading to everyone but Bill & Joe and Teri & Ian following them upstairs.  Not so great.  Then, they don't make sure to get themselves at the top of the standby list, allowing all the other teams to jump them on said list, leading to them eventually getting pulled off the plane.

In leg 7, they stumble upon Danny & Oswald and Charla & Mirna in a travel agency, but instead of sticking around to leech information off of these two teams who have been working at booking a flight for hours, one of whom was the best in TAR history at finding faster flights than everyone else, they decide to leave and look on their own.  They make one futile attempt at finding a flight, then give up and take the default one, allowing Dustin & Kandice to lap them.

On leg 10, they miss out on standby tickets on the first flight, so instead of going right to the next counter to secure tickets on the second flight, tickets they had a standby reservation for, they go to exchange money, allowing Charla & Mirna to scoop the tickets right out from under them.  Again, not the mark of a great team.

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Offline almightyblue

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I'd like to know the basis for Season 5's field being considered so strong.

Yes, Colin and Christie finished in the top 2 a then-record number of times in a row. But who else did that season have?

Marshall and Lance, who's placements were all over the place until they quit (Note that they may have performed much better had the injury not occured, but we can only speculate)

Charla and Mirna, who argued and fought their way across 4 continents before coming to their end in Africa. They never really wowed me with any of their legs.

Kami and Karli- Enough said  :res:

Linda and Karen- Another team that never really wowed me. They finished either mid-table or towards the back in every leg bar 3. (In fact, apart from these legs, their best finish was 6th in a leg of 9.) They weren't that great, and probably wouldn't be so memorable without Karen's amazing effort on THAT Roadblock.

Brandon and Nicole- They wound up with a handful of good results, and were in the middle so much that I didn't really know they existed until the Fast Forward drama.

Chip and Kim- Perhaps, with Brandon and Nicole, one of the only decent teams in the season.

It should also be noted that Colin performed 8 Roadblocks to Christie's 1.

Basically I'd like to know why Colin and Christy are considered to be so great, but Nick and Starr and Megan and Cheyne are not. Meghan and Cheyne managed to defeat the juggernauts that were Flight Time & Big Easy. And Nick and Starr managed to put together a record string of wins, against Ken and Tina and Toni and Dallas, teams that could have easily won any other season.


Nick and Starr had to defeat 4 if not 5 very competitive, compotent (for the most part) F6 teams to win their season

Meghan and Cheyne faced down 3 powerhouse M/M teams, and another team with some of the best luck on the race to get the $1 million
Heck, if it weren't for that Passport debacle, it probably would've been 4/5 M/M teams with M/C

I don't think Season 5 was all that strong, but it was not much weaker than Seasons 6 or 7 were.  It was an average race, the kind of which you don't get anymore because of the proliferation of the metagame making it so that most of the teams have at least a basic knowledge of the race.

Chip & Kim were a good team, Charla & Mirna are severely underrated, and Brandon & Nicole were decent.  Kami & Karli were horrible, but Linda & Karen had some good legs, and would have been a solid mid-pack team on most other seasons.  The thing is, Colin & Christie aren't considered a great team because of the strength of their competition, but because they utterly dominated said competition, to the tune of winning several legs by more than an hour over the second place team, something that doesn't show by merely looking at a graph.  This is why they get such respect, and even Rob went out of his way to say Colin was the one racer he wanted to go against.

As for the other two teams you mentioned, I never said Nick & Starr were weak, though I do agree with mswood that Season 13 was the "Season of Idiots".  Dandrew did make the Final 3 after all.  Ken & Tina slowly self-destructed after leg four, Terence & Sarah likewise hurt themselves with their arguing, Toni & Dallas were good... until Toni let Dallas hold the fanny pack.  Despite their weak field I would still put Nick & Starr in that top tier of teams, along with the likes of Colin & Christie, Kris & Jon, Rob & Amber, Dustin & Kandice, Tammy & Victor, and Zach, because they so definitively beat their weak field.

Meghan & Cheyne, on the other hand, won because of their weak field.  They never looked all that dominant, and won most of their legs through either pure luck, or all the other teams screwing up.  Put Meghan & Cheyne on Season 14, and they have a hard time even making the Final 3.  And The Globetrotters were not juggernauts.  This was a team that had trouble opening a briefcase, and couldn't unscramble the name "Franz".

And look, just because a team is M/M doesn't make them all that strong.  Discounting Danny & Oswald on All-Stars, as they were a returning team, the last good male team was Tyler & James, back on Season 10.  Nicolas & Donald barely scraped by on Don’s experience having done everything (literally) in his life, Dan & Andrew were… well, Dandrew, Mark & Michael got lost at every opportunity, Mel & Mike fell apart once the other teams got competitive, Mark & Bill and Zev & Justin made stupid mistakes that got them eliminated early, Flight Time & Big Easy couldn't unscramble the word “Franz”, and Dan & Sam were dysfunctional to the point where it was amazing they made it as far as they did. Then this season you have Louie & Michael and Dan & Jordan, who've finished 8th and 9th on the first two legs.  Only Jet & Cord look good so far.

Oh, also:


Chip and Kim (you have to admit that they are probably the worst winners in terms of overall performance)

Actually, I'd say Chris & Alex are the worst team to ever win the race.  They were horrible navigators, had no airport skills, no communication skills, and weren't that smart.  The only reason they got into the Final 3 was because Tara insisted on dragging them there.

Offline almightyblue

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The thing with these is one we need to all (myself included) remember that the requirements for being a strong team are different each season.

Things like remembering when judging seasons 1-4 that teams with great placement averages had to deal with the possibility of another team getting in first not to superior racing but due to their being a fast forward available in all but the final leg.  One could certainly argue that that really handicaps teams from season 1-4.  Then you have the fact that seasons 1-5 allowed one racer to do (though not all teams did some very much split their tasks and responsibilities during the race) which makes it difficult to compare seasons 6-16 to earlier races.  Then you have seasons 13 and up that for the most part have removed what was one of the biggest factors of the race and that is the ability to drive and navigate long distance through various countries.  Then you have things like the Yield or U-Turn where you can deliberately impede the progress of your fellow racers (something seasons 1-4 didn't have).  Then you have your competitors, and let me say that no season has across the board strong racers, each has usually have 4 - 5 teams that simple suck.  And I think its actually gotten worse.  Look at seasons 13-15.  Those seasons have the most penalties, teams that get eliminated through their own carelessness, and choices that just boggle the mind.  


I think what's most relevant was that for the first nine seasons, TAR was a physical game, while for seasons 11 and beyond it's been more of a game of intelligence (when there was intelligence to be had, that is), with 10 being a mix of the two.  It's why you see big, strong teams fizzling out mid-race now, while teams like Nick & Starr and Tammy & Victor dominate.

Offline almightyblue

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for me at least, M/C and N/S had to work throughout their season to make it to the end (which they did with ease), and win.  They were just fortunate in that some of their biggest competition kept shooting themselves in the foot along the way.
all Colin and Christie had to do was wait at the top whilst all the sucky teams fell off the pace, to cruise into the finals and win the million.  and they couldn't even pull that off.

Colin and Christie - strong? No doubt about it.  The strongest team on the race ever? I doubt it.
Nick and Starr - strongest team ever? eh, i felt there were stronger teams than them, but probably would've done just as well in S5
Meghan and Cheyne - I don't think they fit the label as strongest team ever either.  But, they too would've dominated in S5 as well

believe me, I don't think S13 and S15 were even close to the most competitive season ever, by any stretch of the imagination.  But, S5 doesn't pop up in my mind as a race that was full of competition and super strong teams either.

Personally, I think you're a bit too dismissive of Season 5, and far too generous to the teams racing on Seasons 13 and 15, especially 15.  The thing is, Nick & Starr and Meghan & Chenye and whoever else you want to name would not have done just as well in Colin & Christie's place.  This is not because they're weaker teams (which they probably are) but because Colin & Christie pretty much destroyed the metagame that was in place back then, and rebuilt it.  Most of these teams would not do as well as they did without all the strategies that stemmed from what Colin & Christie did back on Season 5.


Offline mswood

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The thing with these is one we need to all (myself included) remember that the requirements for being a strong team are different each season.

Things like remembering when judging seasons 1-4 that teams with great placement averages had to deal with the possibility of another team getting in first not to superior racing but due to their being a fast forward available in all but the final leg.  One could certainly argue that that really handicaps teams from season 1-4.  Then you have the fact that seasons 1-5 allowed one racer to do (though not all teams did some very much split their tasks and responsibilities during the race) which makes it difficult to compare seasons 6-16 to earlier races.  Then you have seasons 13 and up that for the most part have removed what was one of the biggest factors of the race and that is the ability to drive and navigate long distance through various countries.  Then you have things like the Yield or U-Turn where you can deliberately impede the progress of your fellow racers (something seasons 1-4 didn't have).  Then you have your competitors, and let me say that no season has across the board strong racers, each has usually have 4 - 5 teams that simple suck.  And I think its actually gotten worse.  Look at seasons 13-15.  Those seasons have the most penalties, teams that get eliminated through their own carelessness, and choices that just boggle the mind. 


I think what's most relevant was that for the first nine seasons, TAR was a physical game, while for seasons 11 and beyond it's been more of a game of intelligence (when there was intelligence to be had, that is), with 10 being a mix of the two.  It's why you see big, strong teams fizzling out mid-race now, while teams like Nick & Starr and Tammy & Victor dominate.
Actually most people considered the latter seasons (minus the final task) to be dumbed down version of the race.  With teams being spoon feed more information on what needs to get done then previous years.  The one primary difference has been the increased use of the final task being more mental then physical.  And the race for the most part isn't strength based, endurance based sure, but that is completely different from physical strength.  It is also something that has been lessoned now that the race is typically 6 -7 days shorter then it was with seasons 1 -11.   

DavidJunior

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i'm just saying we really can't consider a team as not competitive just because they were eliminated due to a dumb mistake.

That's like saying Bode Miller or Lindsey Vonn aren't strong skiiers because they beefed it on the Giant Slalom.

People are human, they make mistakes.  These teams were just unfortunate to make them on the race.

i just feel S5 had a pretty week field.  There were at least 5 teams I felt could've came in last in almost every other season, that at least made the first couple of legs this particular season.

so yeah, Colin and Christie destoryed the other teams, but how many of those teams were legitimate competition?  1 or 2 in the F6?
as opposed to the other 2? 3-4 teams.

and other seasons even more so.

again, i don't feel any of these are the epiomy of competition

i just don't get why people think S13 and S15 were horrible, but think S5 was the greatest thing on the planet in terms of teams

i say they fit somewhere in the middle, closer to the bottom

Offline Zack.

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No, just no.  They weren't even close to the same level as Rob & Amber and Dustin & Kandice, and this has to be the first time I've seen anyone ever suggest as much.  A strong team doesn't finish over 12 hours behind the lead team, twice.  A strong team doesn't need the most contrived equalizer in Amazing Race history to catch up to the lead teams.  A strong team doesn't make three critical airport mistakes that should have gotten them eliminated, mistakes such as:

I have to disagree here. While I dislike Eric/Danielle, I can't fault them for the unpredictability of flights during the Hajj, or for the order in which racers getting on or off standby. Moreover, both Kevin/Drew and Bill/Joe ended up at least 12 hours behind Rob/Brennan and Frank/Margarita in Beijing - would you not say they were strong teams?

Offline mswood

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Almightblue

First, I would never call Eric & Danielle a great team, but yeah they raced better then Charla & Mirna.  I don't discount that teams strength (I even stated it being their ability to either find flights, or to use their attitude to push their way above other teams which they have done in more then one season) and their ability (at times because they can be very grating) to get help from others (though again this can also hurt them, just look at the first episode to see a great example of this).

But look at what happens during this season and judge who performed smarter and better.

Who is better at navigation?  
WHo is better at driving?
Who is better on foot getting from point A to point B?
Out of all the tasks performed who is better?
Who is better with Flights?
Who is better with ferns?

Clearly the first four are easily on Eric & Danielle's side, not just through the first four episode but through the full race.

The flight issue I also give to Charla & Mirna (though comments below because they also had problems and some of what happened was very much luck and not based off of statistical patterns of the show).

Then we have getting help from ferns,  And this well we certainly see Charla & Mirna employee locals for a lot of help.  But how successful was this.  In fact rarely was this a factor for good for this team (well maybe better then what they would have done on their own, but still not good).  The one exception is according to IZAD (who followed this team from Baku caves to the entrance of the Pit Stop and helped Charla with the bike roadblock) it had some value, but they still took hours longer to complete each and every part of that leg then any other team.  And thats with a lot of local help.  Eric & Danielle on the other hand rarely sought help from locals besides the typical directions (which they already did better then Charla & Mirna to begin with).

Its very clear that the majority of all the aspects of the race, Eric & Danielle did better.  

Remove the issue of three of the flights and honestly tell me that Charla & Mirna performed stronger?  And if you rationally cant then you can't say that tasks were the only thing Eric & Danielle did better.

On the flight issue.  The first two flight issues were not based on errors.  Statistically Eric & Danielle made the correct choices.  

Charla & Mirna (first major flight issue) gambled on flying to a location where not only did they not have tickets, but they weren't on standby.  That was a huge gamble and not something that historically is successful on the race (They even state its a big risk).  In fact look at Season four to see this example of racing go horrible wrong for a team.  That worked out was luck.  Just three episodes earlier they weren't able to get standby, so they know that even with a film crew they aren't always going to be successful.  On the standby list (later same episode) we can't actually judge.  Since we don't see or hear the order they are put on standby, we don't know if it matches the order listed later in the next country (and just from my own experience plus watching this show it doesn't always).  Historically all the teams (including Teri & Ian and the Guidos made a much safer and rational choice.

The next airport issue.  In the shows history how many times have the scheduled connecting flights provided not been meet?  Out of over 200 plus flights?   Well the answer is none.  Now teams have chosen to take alternate routes themselves and lost connections, but never one set up by production.  Never.  You think it was a mistake for Eric & Danielle to try another travel agent.  Yet  they knew those 4 teams had been there (when they arrived by a clock on the wall and closely matching dialogue) 7 hours and 10 minutes, and managed to find nothing.  Yes 20 minutes later seats did open up on an earlier flight, but you are assuming those same seats wouldn't show up at the other agency.   Or that somehow Eric & Danielle might have been able to book those seats at that same agency faster then Charla & Mirna group (as that group is now using both agents).  I mean logically how is their choice wrong?  Do they see these teams having any success?  Nope no at all, in fact the length of time that they tried is staggering.  Is there a logical reason not to try another agency?  No, not with the information they have.  And worse comes to worse they have the up to this point 100% reliable arranged flight and connections.  There is no logical reason to suspect their arranged flights would not work out.  And curiously since that date, we have yet to see it happen again.  Teams can't know what will occur.  Its like saying Eric & Dani should have taken that flight that arrived at 3:10pm in Warsaw (4 hours after the arranged flight) because they should have known their flight wouldn't work out.   With the arranged flight they would have finished 3rd.  There was no logical way to rationalize that staying there would have been better for them.  

The final flight problem, yeah while its a minor error (as teams aren't often pushed in front of other teams it has happened in the race's history so it was based on history a possibility).  And that was the only flight issue that they truly had even marginal control over.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 07:12:46 PM by mswood »

Offline theschnauzers

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I have to say that I think some of the recent discussion might have been better placed in the Racer mechanics threads because a lot of has to do with the teams' skill set, or even specific skills in specific circumstances. But that's just my humble opinion, YMMV.
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Offline theschnauzers

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Here's the leader board after leg 3:

Jet-Cord   1.6666   5/3..........(2.0000)
Joseph-Heidi    3.6666   11/3..........(3.5000)
Jeff-Jordan   4.0000   12/3..........(3.5000)
Carol-Brandy   4.0000   12/3..........(4.5000)
Steve-Allison   4.3333   13/3..........(5.5000)
Brent-Caite    6.0000   18/3..........(5.5000)
Jordan-Daniel    7.3333   22/3..........(8.0000)
Louie-Michael   8.6666   26/3..........(9.0000)

Monique-Shawne 5.3333   16/3..........(3.5000)
Jody-Shannon    10.0000   20/2
Adrian-Dana    11.0000   11/1
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 06:26:26 PM by theschnauzers »
-- theschnauzers

DavidJunior

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how did Louie and Michael jump up so far when they got 8th?

this after getting 9th on leg 1 and 2?

Offline chill_sd

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how did Louie and Michael jump up so far when they got 8th?

this after getting 9th on leg 1 and 2?

That's an arithmetic mistake.  26/3 = 8.6667

Offline theschnauzers

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I'll fix it. Thanks.

That's what happens when you try to watch the Closing Ceremonies and Cold Case at the same time.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 06:26:59 PM by theschnauzers »
-- theschnauzers

Offline almightyblue

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Actually most people considered the latter seasons (minus the final task) to be dumbed down version of the race.  With teams being spoon feed more information on what needs to get done then previous years.  The one primary difference has been the increased use of the final task being more mental then physical.  And the race for the most part isn't strength based, endurance based sure, but that is completely different from physical strength.  It is also something that has been lessoned now that the race is typically 6 -7 days shorter then it was with seasons 1 -11.   

Most people would be ignoring the fact that other than the "vague clues" teams received on Seasons 1-4 (clues that never fooled anyone), the tasks were overall much easier than they are now.  The Detours themselves should prove this.  I can't be the only one whose noticed that they no longer give the short and scary/long and safe choice anymore, and that teams actually have to work at most Detours now instead of getting to do quick thrill tasks six or seven times a season.  You take teams with current strategical knowledge and have them run the first four courses as they were, people would be complaining about the lack of challenge.

And as far as I can tell, Season 10 is still considered the hardest course.

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Offline almightyblue

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I have to disagree here. While I dislike Eric/Danielle, I can't fault them for the unpredictability of flights during the Hajj, or for the order in which racers getting on or off standby. Moreover, both Kevin/Drew and Bill/Joe ended up at least 12 hours behind Rob/Brennan and Frank/Margarita in Beijing - would you not say they were strong teams?

Yes, I would consider Kevin & Drew a weak team, and Bill & Joe were only strong in context that on the first season none of the teams knew what they were doing.  Both these teams struggled on All-Stars for a reason.  What made Bill & Joe so strong was their strategic advantage over the other teams, an advantage they didn't have racing against the likes of Rob & Amber and Danny & Oswald, who had created their own strategies that far surpassed anything Bill & Joe had created.

But in comparison to the other teams on their season, no Bill & Joe and Kevin & Drew weren't that weak, it was the poor course planning at the tail end of Season 1 that pushed them that far back.

Offline almightyblue

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Almightblue

First, I would never call Eric & Danielle a great team, but yeah they raced better then Charla & Mirna.  I don't discount that teams strength (I even stated it being their ability to either find flights, or to use their attitude to push their way above other teams which they have done in more then one season) and their ability (at times because they can be very grating) to get help from others (though again this can also hurt them, just look at the first episode to see a great example of this).

But look at what happens during this season and judge who performed smarter and better.

Who is better at navigation?  
WHo is better at driving?
Who is better on foot getting from point A to point B?
Out of all the tasks performed who is better?
Who is better with Flights?
Who is better with ferns?

Clearly the first four are easily on Eric & Danielle's side, not just through the first four episode but through the full race.

The flight issue I also give to Charla & Mirna (though comments below because they also had problems and some of what happened was very much luck and not based off of statistical patterns of the show).

Then we have getting help from ferns,  And this well we certainly see Charla & Mirna employee locals for a lot of help.  But how successful was this.  In fact rarely was this a factor for good for this team (well maybe better then what they would have done on their own, but still not good).  The one exception is according to IZAD (who followed this team from Baku caves to the entrance of the Pit Stop and helped Charla with the bike roadblock) it had some value, but they still took hours longer to complete each and every part of that leg then any other team.  And thats with a lot of local help.  Eric & Danielle on the other hand rarely sought help from locals besides the typical directions (which they already did better then Charla & Mirna to begin with).

Its very clear that the majority of all the aspects of the race, Eric & Danielle did better.  

Remove the issue of three of the flights and honestly tell me that Charla & Mirna performed stronger?  And if you rationally cant then you can't say that tasks were the only thing Eric & Danielle did better.

On the flight issue.  The first two flight issues were not based on errors.  Statistically Eric & Danielle made the correct choices.  

Charla & Mirna (first major flight issue) gambled on flying to a location where not only did they not have tickets, but they weren't on standby.  That was a huge gamble and not something that historically is successful on the race (They even state its a big risk).  In fact look at Season four to see this example of racing go horrible wrong for a team.  That worked out was luck.  Just three episodes earlier they weren't able to get standby, so they know that even with a film crew they aren't always going to be successful.  On the standby list (later same episode) we can't actually judge.  Since we don't see or hear the order they are put on standby, we don't know if it matches the order listed later in the next country (and just from my own experience plus watching this show it doesn't always).  Historically all the teams (including Teri & Ian and the Guidos made a much safer and rational choice.

The next airport issue.  In the shows history how many times have the scheduled connecting flights provided not been meet?  Out of over 200 plus flights?   Well the answer is none.  Now teams have chosen to take alternate routes themselves and lost connections, but never one set up by production.  Never.  You think it was a mistake for Eric & Danielle to try another travel agent.  Yet  they knew those 4 teams had been there (when they arrived by a clock on the wall and closely matching dialogue) 7 hours and 10 minutes, and managed to find nothing.  Yes 20 minutes later seats did open up on an earlier flight, but you are assuming those same seats wouldn't show up at the other agency.   Or that somehow Eric & Danielle might have been able to book those seats at that same agency faster then Charla & Mirna group (as that group is now using both agents).  I mean logically how is their choice wrong?  Do they see these teams having any success?  Nope no at all, in fact the length of time that they tried is staggering.  Is there a logical reason not to try another agency?  No, not with the information they have.  And worse comes to worse they have the up to this point 100% reliable arranged flight and connections.  There is no logical reason to suspect their arranged flights would not work out.  And curiously since that date, we have yet to see it happen again.  Teams can't know what will occur.  Its like saying Eric & Dani should have taken that flight that arrived at 3:10pm in Warsaw (4 hours after the arranged flight) because they should have known their flight wouldn't work out.   With the arranged flight they would have finished 3rd.  There was no logical way to rationalize that staying there would have been better for them.  

The final flight problem, yeah while its a minor error (as teams aren't often pushed in front of other teams it has happened in the race's history so it was based on history a possibility).  And that was the only flight issue that they truly had even marginal control over.


You're forgetting that Charla & Mirna also had an Intelligence advantage, plus they fought less (if only slightly), which makes the argument a push.  It really doesn't matter though as it only determines who was the 4th or 5th strongest team on the season (as I doubt either team's ability to consistently beat Uchenna & Joyce, you know, had they not made an airport mistake worse than any Eric & Danielle made).  I would rank both teams as above average.  Then again, being above average is usually good enough to give a team a good chance of getting into the Final 3, it's just that considering their competition, neither should have made it there.

And no, I'm not condoning the choice Charla & Mirna made on leg 6, it was a risk, but those risks were the only things keeping them in the race.  As for Eric & Danielle, they did not make the wrong choice, they made a mistake by allowing all the other teams to jump them on the standby list.  It can't be a coincidence that the tickets were issued in reverse order that the teams put their names on said list.

As for leg 7, it was a mistake to leave that flight agency, especially for a team like that.  I mean, after leaving the agency, they made one attempt (that aired) to find better tickets, then just gave up and took what was given to them.  Had they stayed with Charla & Mirna and Danny & Oswald, the worst case scenario would have put them on their given flight with two other teams, one of whom they had a clear physical advantage over.  So statistically, they were better off staying where they were.  There's only a handful of teams I would have condoned leaving that travel agency to look for their own tickets (Charla & Mirna, Colin & Christie, Tara & Wil, Rob & Amber, Ronald & Christina, maybe a few others).

Offline Benedicto

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I would rank Charla & Mirna higher because they're much more Entertaining

Entertainment Value > Physical/Mental  :lol3:
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Offline slayton

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I don't believe that searching for a location in the middle of the desert, by looking for yellow stones as your guide, is that easy.

I didn't even root for Rob & Brennan way back then, but I believe that they are the best of the best of the winners.  I don't think any other winners even come close to their combination of intelligence, smarts, physical strength, and athleticism.

Offline theschnauzers

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Now we can see trends in the placements:

Team      This Week   Last Week   Week 2      Trend
Jet-Cord      2.2500   9/4   (1.6666)   (2.0000)   Stable
Joseph-Heidi    3.5000   14/4   (3.6666)   (3.5000)   Stable
Carol-Brandy   4.2500   17/4   (4.0000)   (4.5000)   Stable
Steve-Allison   4.7500   15/4   (4.3333)   (5.5000)   Stable
Jeff-Jordan   5.0000   20/4   (4.0000)   (3.5000)   Dropping Sharply
Brent-Caite    6.2500   25/4   (6.0000)   (5.5000)   Dropping
Louie-Michael   6.7500   27/4   (8.3333)   (9.0000)   Rising Sharply
Jordan-Daniel    7.0000   28/4   (7.3333)   (8.0000)   Rising

Monique-Shawne 5.3333   16/3
Jody-Shannon    10.0000   20/2
Adrian-Dana    11.0000   11/1
-- theschnauzers

Offline theschnauzers

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Quote
Team      This Week   Week 4      Week 3      Week 2      Trend
Jet-Cord   2.4000   12/5   2.2500   9/4   (1.6666)   (2.0000)   Stable
Steve-Allison   3.4000   17/5   4.7500   15/4   (4.3333)   (5.5000)   Rising
Carol-Brandy   4.4000   22/5   4.2500   17/4   (4.0000)   (4.5000)   Stable
Jeff-Jordan   5.4000   27/5   5.0000   20/4   (4.0000)   (3.5000)   Dropping
Louie-Michael   5.6000   28/5   6.7500   27/4   (8.3333)   (9.0000)   Rising Sharply

Brent-Caite    6.2000   31/5   6.2500   25/4   (6.0000)   (5.5000)   Dropping Slowly

Jordan-Daniel    6.4000   32/5   7.0000   28/4   (7.3333)   (8.0000)   Rising

Joseph-Heidi    4.4000   22/5   
Monique-Shawne 5.3333   16/3
Jody-Shannon    10.0000   20/2
Adrian-Dana    11.0000   11/1

A lot of movement this week due to Heidi and Joe's meltdown at the U-Turn. Teams are pretty evenly spaced now as the lowest teams have climbed up, and Jet-Cord have been pulled back a little from the stratosphere.
-- theschnauzers

Offline mswood

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If the spoils are correct this has to be the worst (based on performance to date) set of final four in race history.

Online Dånooky

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If the spoils are correct this has to be the worst (based on performance to date) set of final four in race history.
Maybe they'll redeem themselves later, like Louie & Mike are doing right now.
The story so far:
In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move

Offline mswood

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If the spoils are correct this has to be the worst (based on performance to date) set of final four in race history.
[/quote}
Maybe they'll redeem themselves later, like Louie & Mike are doing right now.
Sure Louie & Michael have two wins, but that really doesn't help us judge this current episode.  This being only the 5th (or is it now 6th) episode of TAR history without some form of equalizer it makes it difficult for them not to win this leg.  To truly judge the performance we need departure times next week to compare against starting times this week to really judge how ell they've done (though clearly they have done better).

Offline theschnauzers

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The current leg was a bit odd -- except for the U-Turn there really wasn't much opportunity for any team to shift their placement order, although Heidi and Joe's big fall moved most of the teams up a spot.
This leg was like having a yellow flag out for virtually the entire leg -- no chance for movement except for the race cars demolished on the track.
-- theschnauzers


 

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