Topic: Ranking the Teams -- A basis for comparing all teams TAR 1-22 *updated*

[theschnauzers]

22 Races, 245 teams, 466 Racers

Here is a list of all the teams from the 22 seasons to date in order of average leg placement.

The numbers before the team name on each row shows that team's season and that team's overall order of finish in that season. The fraction is a numerator equal to the total ordinal placements from the legs that team raced in added together, divided by the number of legs that team raced. The final number is the average placement taken out to a value of one-ten thousandth. Where more than one team has the same average, a team that completed more legs is ranked ahead of a team that completed fewer legs, and then, for teams that competed for the same number of legs, a team from an earlier season is ranked ahead of a team from a later season. Finally, where there are teams from the same season, with the same average, and lasted for the same number of legs, the team that placed closer to first place is ranked ahead of the other team.

Keep in mind that in seasons 6, 7, 9, and 10, there was an überleg (which is treated as two legs for the purposes of this list), that seasons 18 and 19 had legs with pit stops that had no intervening rest period before the next leg started; that 12 teams competed in seasons 3, 4, 10, and 15, and that ten teams competed in season 8. (In season 22, David-Connor decided to withdraw after starting the fifth leg due to David’s injury in leg 2 that required immediate surgery. While they reached the pit stop before any of the teams completed the leg, they are shown as checking in last for computation purposes.) 

The lines in navy blue with italics are the final three teams of each season. Teams in dark magneta are the winning teams of each season. The teams that were eliminated during the first leg are in maroon. No team from seasons 18 or 19 is in burgundy, as no team was eliminated on the first leg. There is a paragraph break in the list after every tenth team.

The lower the average, the better the team placed on average. The best possible average for a team that reaches the final three (for an 12-leg race with 11 teams) and therefore, completes the Race would be:
(1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1)  12/12= 1.0000.
The worse possible average for a team that reaches the final three (for an 12-leg race with 11 teams) would be:
(11+11+10+10+9+8+7+6+5+4+3+3) 87/12=7.2500.

(I used 12 legs, 11 teams as the most common variation in describing the highest and lowest values. This will vary slightly, depending on the designations of some legs as either NELs or an überleg in the Race design, and for the number of teams (10 to 12) and number of legs (11-13) for any given season.)

I plan to update this list after every season using this first post.

09-02 Eric/Jeremy      22/13   1.6923 20-01 Rachel-Dave         22/12   1.8333 15-01 Meghan/Cheyne      24/12   2.0000 14-01 Tammy/Victor         27/12   2.2500 20-02 Art-J.J.         27/12   2.2500 07-02 Rob/Amber          30/13   2.3076 01-02 Frank/Margarita      31/13   2.3846 06-02 Kris/Jon           31/13   2.3846 10-01Tyler/James          31/13   2.3846 22-01 Bates-Anthony      29/12   2.4166 10 13-01 Nick/Starr         27/11   2.4545 01-01 Rob/Brennan         32/13   2.4615 05-02 Colin/Christie         32/13   2.4615 09-01 BJ/Tyler         32/13   2.4615 02-02 Tara/Wil         33/13   2.5384 16-02 Jet/Cord         31/12   2.5833 13-02 Ken/Tina         29/11   2.6363 19-04 Andy - Tommy          29/11   2.6363 11-04 Oswald/Danny         32/12   2.6666 03-01 Flo/Zach         35/13   2.6923 20 03-03 Ken/Gerard         35/13   2.6923 14-03 Margie/Luke         33/12   2.7500 11-08 Rob/Amber           11/4   2.7500 01-03 Joe/Bill         36/13   2.7692 21-05 Abbie-Ryan      25/9    2.7777 08-01 Linz            31/11   2.8181 19-01 Ernie - Cindy          34/12   2.8333 06-04 Hayden/Aaron         35/12   2.9166 11-02 Dustin/Kandice        38/13   2.9230 07-03 Ron/Kelly          39/13   3.0000 30 10-02 Rob/Kimberly         39/13   3.0000 12-06 Azaria/Hendekea         18/6   3.0000 17-03 Jill/Thomas            6/12   3.0000 22-08 David-Connor      15/5   3.0000 04-01 Reichen/Chip         40/13   3.0769 17-01 Nat/Kat            37/12   3.0833 03-04 Derek/Drew         34/11   3.0909 15-04 Flight Time/Big Easy      34/11   3.0909 13-04 Toni/Dallas         31/10   3.1000 07-01 Uchenna/Joyce      41/13   3.1538 40 15-02 Sam/Dan         38/12   3.1666 10-04 Dustin/Kandice         38/12    3.1666 10-07 Peter/Sarah         19/6   3.1666 17-02 Brook/Claire      38/12   3.1666 21-03 Trey-Lexi         38/12    3.1666 12-01 Rachel/TK          35/11   3.1818 08-02 Bransen            35/11   3.1818 13-05 Terence/Sarah         26/8   3.2500 18-03 Gary-Malloy      9/12   3.2500 08-03 Weaver         36/11   3.2727 50 21-04 Nadiya-Natalie      36/11    3.2727 05-03 Brandon/Nicole         43/13   3.3076 18-01 Kisha-Jen         40/12   3.3333 20-03 Brendon-Rachel      41/12   3.4166 01-04 Kevin/Drew         37/11   3.3636 16-06 Steve/Allison         27/8    3.3750 02-01 Chris/Alex         44/13   3.3846 05-01 Chip/Kim         44/13   3.3846 12-02 Ronald/Christina       38/11   3.4545 18-04 Zev-Justin          38/11   3.4545 60 06-01 Freddy/Kendra      45/13   3.4615 06-06 Jonathan/Victoria       32/9   3.5555 14-06 Mel/Mike          25/7   3.5714 19-02 Jeremy - Sandy       43/12   3.5833 21-02 Jaymes-James      43/12   3.5833    11-01 Eric/Danielle          47/13   3.6153 12-05 Kynt/Vyxsin         29/8   3.6250 04-05 Millie/Chuck         33/9   3.6666 02-03 Blake/Paige      48/13   3.6923 08-04 Godlewski         37/10   3.7000 70 12-04 Jennifer/Nathan         37/10   3.7000    05-06 Charla/Mirna         26/7   3.7142 04-04 Jon/Al            41/11   3.7272 18-02 Flight Time-Big Easy   45/12   3.7500 22-09 Jessica-John      15/4   3.7500 09-04 Joseph/Monica         42/11   3.8181 04-02 Kelly/Jon         50/13   3.8461 02-05 Gary/Dave         35/9   3.8888 14-02 Cara/Jaime         47/12   3.9166 04-03 David/Jeff         52/13   4.0000 80 16-05 Carol/Brandy         36/9    4.0000 02-04 Oswald/Danny         44/11   4.0000 07-05 Lynn/Alex          37/9   4.1111 08-05 Paolo            33/8   4.1250 21-06 James-Abba      33/8    4.1250 02-06 Mary/Peach         29/7   4.1428 22-07 Pam-Winnie      29/7   4.1428 11-03 Charla/Mirna        54/13   4.1538 05-04 Linda/Karen         50/12   4.1666 12-03 Nicolas/Donald      46/11   4.1818 90 15-05 Gary/Matt         38/9   4.2222 09-03 Ray/Yolanda      55/13   4.2307 02-08 Shola/Doyin      17/4   4.2500 15-03 Brian/Ericka      51/12   4.2500 22-02 Max-Katie      51/12   4.2500 14-04 Kisha/Jen         47/11   4.2727 19-07 Justin - Jennifer          30/7   4.2850 16-01 Jordan/Daniel      52/12   4.3333    16-03 Brent/Caite          52/12   4.3333    11-05 Uchenna/Joyce          39/9   4.3333 100 22-03 Mona-Beth      52/12   4.3333 16-04 Louie/Michael         48/11   4.3636 19-06 Laurence - Zac          35/8   4.3750 16-08 Joseph/Heidi          22/5    4.4000 19-03 Amani - Marcus       54/12   4.5000 14-08 Amanda/Kris         18/4   4.5000 03-02 Teri-Ian         59/13   4.5384 18-06 Jet-Cord            41/9   4.5555 21-01 Josh-Brent         55/12    4.5833 06-05 Lori/Bolo            46/10   4.6000 110 10-05 Erwin/Godwin         46/10    4.6000 20-05 Mark-Bopper         46/10   4.6000 17-06 Gary-Malloy         37/8   4.6250 10-09 Duke/Lauren         14/3   4.6666 06-03 Adam/Rebecca      61/13   4.6923 22-05 Joey-Meghan      47/10   4.7000 07-06 Brian/Greg          33/7   4.7142 09-06 Lake/Michelle         33/7   4.7142 08-07 Schroeder         19/4   4.7500 17-09 Connor/Jonathan         19/4   4.7500 120 03-05 John Vito/Jill         48/10   4.8000 11-07 Teri/Ian              29/6   4.8333 09-05 Fran/Barry         44/9   4.8888 22-04 Caroline-Jennifer      54/11   4.9090 10-03 Lyn/Karlyn         65/13   5.0000 07-07 Ray/Deanna          30/6   5.0000 04-09 Steve/Josh         20/4   5.0000 01-09 Pat/Brenda         15/3   5.0000 13-09 Mark/Bill            15/3   5.0000 17-05 Chad/Stephanie         46/9   5.1111 130 13-06 Kelly/Christy         36/7    5.1428 03-07 Aaron/Arianne         31/6   5.1666 13-03 Andrew/Dan      57/11   5.1818    14-05 Mark /Michael         47/9   5.2222 11-06 Joe/Bill              42/8   5.2500 05-08 Bob/Joyce         21/4   5.2500 12-08 Lorena/Jason         21/4   5.2500    17-04 Nick/Vicki                58/11   5.2727 06-07 Gus/Hera         37/7   5.2857 17-07 Michael/Kevin         37/7   5.2857 140 04-07 Monica/Sheree         32/6   5.3333 05-07 Marshall/Lance         32/6   5.3333 07-09 Debbie/Bianca         16/3   5.3333 16-09 Monique/Shawne       16/3    5.3333 18-08 Margie-Luke         32/6   5.3333 07-04 Meredith/Gretchen      59/11   5.3636 17-08 Katie-Rachel         27/5   5.4000 04-06 Tian/Jaree         38/7   5.4285 19-05 Bill - Cathi          50/10   5.5000 08-06 Gaghan            33/6   5.5000 150    05-10 Alison/Donny         11/2   5.5000 20-06 Nary-Jamie         44/8   5.5000 20-07 Joey-Danny         33/6   5.5000 03-06 Andre/Damon         39/7   5.5714 16-07 Jeff/Jordan         34/6    5.6666    03-09 Heather/Eve         23/4   5.7500 01-05 Nancy/Emily         52/9   5.7777 05-05 Kami/Karli         58/10   5.8000 02-07 Cyndy/Russell         29/5   5.8000 03-08 Michael/Kathy         29/5   5.8000 160 12-07 Shana/Jennifer         29/5   5.8000    09-07 David/Lori         35/6   5.8333 20-04 Vanessa-Ralph      54/11   5.9090 04-11 Amanda/Chris         12/2   6.0000 09-09 Wanda/Desiree         25/4   6.2500    15-08 Lance/Keri         30/5   6.0000    15-09 Zev/Justin         24/4   6.0000 18-05 Kent-Vyxsin         60/10   6.0000 18-07 Ronald-Christina         42/7   6.0000 21-07 Rob-Kelley      36/6    6.0000 170 21-10 Amy-Daniel      12/2    6.0000 10-06 David/Mary         49/8   6.1250 22-06 Chuck-Wynona      49/8   6.1250 04-08 Steve/Dave         31/5   6.2000 13-07 Aja/Ty            31/5    6.2000 21-09 Caitlin-Brittany      19/3    6.3333 01-06 Lenny/Karen         45/7   6.4285 01-08 David/Margaretta        26/4   6.5000 07-08 Susan/Patrick         26/4   6.5000 08-09 Rogers            13/2   6.5000 180 18-11 Amanda-Kris         13/2   6.5000 15-06 Maria/Tiffany         46/7   6.5714 01-07 Paul/Amie         33/5   6.6000 14-07 Christie/Jodi         40/6   6.6666 14-09 Brad/Victoria         20/3   6.6666 20-08 Kerri-Stacy      34/5   6.8000 10-08 Tom/Terry         28/4   7.0000 06-09 Lena/Kristy         21/3   7.0000 08-08 Aiello            21/3   7.0000 19-09 Kaylani - Lisa          21/3   7.0000 190 02-10 Hope/Norm         14/2   7.0000 19-10 Ethan - Jenna          14/2   7.0000 05-09 Jim/Marsha         22/3   7.3333 15-07 Mika/Canaan         46/6   7.6666 15-10 Marcy/Ron         23/3   7.6666 13-08 Marisa/Brooke         31/4   7.7500 09-08 Danielle/Dani         39/5   7.8000 18-09 Cara-Jaime         39/5   7.8000 19-08 Liz - Marie          39/5   7.8000 06-08 Don/Mary Jean         40/5   8.0000 200 01-10 Kim/Leslie         16/2   8.0000 10-10 Kellie/Jamie         16/2    8.0000 20-09 Elliot-Andrew      24/3   8.0000 21-08 Gary-Will         33/4    8.2500    04-10 Russell/Cindy         25/3   8.3333 12-09 Marianna/Julia         25/3   8.3333 18-10 Mel-Mike            25/3   8.3333 02-09 Peggy/Claire         27/3   9.0000 03-10 Dennis/Andrew         27/3   9.0000 06-10 Meredith/Maria         18/2   9.0000 210 11-09 David/Mary           27/3   9.0000 12-10 Kate/Pat            18/2   9.0000 20-10 Dave-Cherie         18/2   9.0000 22-10 Idries-Jamil      18/2   9.0000 07-10 Megan/Heidi         19/2   9.5000 13-10 Anthony/Stephanie      19/2   9.5000 14-10 Linda/Steve         19/2   9.5000 15-11 Garrett/Jessica         19/2   9.5000 17-10 Andie-Jenna         19/2   9.5000 19-11 Ron - Bill          19/2   9.5000 220 09-10 Lisa/Joni            20/2   10.0000 11-10 Kevin/Drew           20/2   10.0000 16-10 Jody/Shannon          20/2   10.0000 08-10 Black         10/1   10.0000 03-11 Tramel/Talicia         21/2   10.5000 01-11 Matt/Ana         11/1   11.0000 02-11 Deidre/Hillary         11/1   11.0000 05-11 Dennis/Erika         11/1   11.0000 06-11 Joe/Avi            11/1    11.0000 07-11 Ryan/Chuck          11/1    11.0000 230 09-11 John/Scott         11/1   11.0000 10-11 Vipul/Arti            11/1   11.0000 11-11 John Vito/Jill         11/1   11.0000 12-11 Ari/Staella         11/1   11.0000 13-11 Anita/Arthur         11/1   11.0000 14-11 Jennifer/Preston         11/1   11.0000 16-11 Adrian/Dana          11/1    11.0000 17-11 Ron/Tony         11/1   11.0000 20-11 Misa-Maiya         11/1   11.0000 21-11 Rob-Sheila      11/1    11.000 240 22-11 Matthew-Daniel       11/1   11.0000 03-12 Gina/Sylvia         12/1   12.0000 04-12 Debra/Steve         12/1   12.0000 10-12 Bilal/Sa'eed           12/1   12.0000 15-12 Eric/Lisa            12/1   12.0000

[revengefullycreative]

Awesome list, as always. I think I saw you do this elsewhere in the past.  I totally agree with counting TBC's as two legs (as there are typically 2 RB/Detours within the "one leg").  Sadly, it gets difficult to have a perfect comparison when you factor in races from TAR12 to the most recent TAR.  That's due to the 11-leg format used from TAR's 12-14.

Something I did on my now "deceased" geocities site for the first 9 seasons was that I also factored in each team's placement vs. the field within each segment.  In other words, it's each team's placement out of the # of teams the beat (or that beat them) within each leg.  For instance, Flo & Zach finished 2nd in their first leg.  I multiplied that by 12 (then 5*11 and 3*10 and so on to get to a total of 249 for Flo & Zach). 

After the overall number was reached, I divided it by the total number of teams that raced in each leg throughout the race.  For TAR3, that total would be 88 (12+11+10+9+8+7+6+5+5+5+4+3+3=88).  Therefore, factoring the field in addition to a team's placement and the number of legs that team completed would have given Flo & Zach an average of 2.83.

It's a little bit higher than the 2.69 that you had, but IMO, I feel that it was more of an accomplishment seeing someone win a couple of legs with 9 or more teams racing in that leg, compared to someone winning 2 (or more) legs with 4 or 5 teams remaining.

I think I saved the other teams placement somewhere else, but I don't know for sure (or it's buried somewhere & I'd be better off recreating it to include season 10 and beyond).  I like your list though in general; really gives a nice look toward how a lot of the teams performed overall during their stay on the race.

[apskip]

The raw statistics are a good start, but I think the difficulty of prime opponents is another factor. Here are teams that won despite relatively equal performance by another team:

Uchenna/Joyce  AR7 (opp. Rob/Amber)
BJ/Tyler AR9 (opp. Eric/Jeremy)
Chris/Alex AR2 (opp. Wil/Tara)
Freddie/Kendra AR6 (opp. Kris/Jon)
Nick/Starr AR13 (opp. Ken/Tina)
 
I think a way needs to be developed to factor in dominance of a season despite not winning it. The prime example of this is Colin/Christie, who lost of Chip/Kim only by multiple instances of bad luck (fog in Calgary, bad advice from American Airlines, tire blowout in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area).

I believe that the necessary judgments to determine "who is the best team of all time" are inherently subjective. Statistics can only take you so far. You have to develop essentially qualitative measures that get somehow translated into numbers in order to accomplish a decent ranking.

[Coutzy]

Rob and Brennan also managed to beat a team that performed roughly equal to them (Avg. place difference between them and Frank and Margarita was roughly .08)

[theschnauzers]

There is an earlier version of this over at TWoP, but I haven't updated it in recent seasons, and there were inconsistencies in computation that needed to be fixed. I also decided that rather than round off decimals, I'd take the fractions out 4 digits. And the attitude of TPTB there isn't receptive to this sort of thing anymore, so it was time to move it elsewhere, such as here.

I've reached the conclusion that the variations in the number of legs and teams wouldn't likely make a real difference in this type of measurement. Dominating teams in a season are reflected in this placement approach; you need look no further than at the teams currently listed at the top of the listing. I'd also look at the final three teams that have the highest values, such as the ones averaging 5.0000 or higher, and I think there's little argument that some final three teams were very, very, lucky to make final three.

One problem in using mid-leg points to fine-tune placements is that the show is inconsistent in providing such points from leg-to-leg and season-to-season. Then there's the issue of bunching, and the issue of filmed but unaired tasks and route markers, both of which make having complete ordinal information impossible.

Finally, keep in mind that this is intended to be an objective tool, and not reflect subjective opinions. Of course, this listing is a starting point for those types of discussion, but that's fine with me. I doubt there would be any consensus on subjectively developed performance rankings anyhow.

[chill_sd]

It's interesting when you look at All-Stars.  Except for the bottom three teams,  a pretty close ranking.

11-04 Oswald/Danny      32/12   2.6666
11-08 Rob/Amber        11/4      2.7500
11-02 Dustin/Kandice     38/13   2.9230
11-01 Eric/Danielle    47/13   3.6153
11-03 Charla/Mirna     54/13   4.1538
11-05 Uchenna/Joyce    39/9      4.3333
11-07 Teri/Ian           29/6      4.8333
11-06 Joe/Bill           42/8      5.2500
11-09 David/Mary        27/3      9.0000
11-10 Kevin/Drew        20/2      10.0000
11-11 John Vito/Jill         11/1      11.0000

[Hooky]

I love your list! I've been hoping for someone to post something like this for a while. Thanks!

I found an error, though. In Season 7 you have it listed as being out of 12 legs, but if you count double-legs that would result in a total of 13 legs, not 12. That also means that Lynn & Alex raced through 9/13 legs, and Meredith and Gretchen raced through 11/13 legs.

[theschnauzers]

I found an error, though. In Season 7 you have it listed as being out of 12 legs, but if you count double-legs that would result in a total of 13 legs, not 12. That also means that Lynn & Alex raced through 9/13 legs, and Meredith and Gretchen raced through 11/13 legs.

I kept each season's leg-by-leg placements, so I'll double-check when I get a chance. As you can gather, it's a very painstaking process, and all it takes is one interruption to mess up. And making sure all the uberlegs got treated consistently meant that I had to move teams up and down since originally I counted them as separate legs in some seasons and not in others. But the show has never failed to show the order of the mid-point arrivals for a double-leg, so it makes it easier to equitably treat it as two legs.

As to All-Stars , I think the numbers can be said to show that it was a fairly wide open season once Romber were out of the way.  It's also surprising how many of the All-Star Teams had similar placement averages to their original season(s), which is what helped convince me that the approach I'm using to compute this list was the fairest way to go.

[theschnauzers]

OK, I have found the problem, and fixed the list. It turns out that at some point the placements for leg 5 of season 7 got lost in the merged notes I worked from this week, although they were in my original notes I made back in season seven. I've recomputed the values for the seven teams affected, and re-ordered the list with the correct values for those teams.

[racer]

Wow, amazing work! This is sensational, and I thank you for producing this!

[Benedicto]

I love this

but there's another way to know dominance ^_^

From wuming01:

For each leg, the placement is weighted (by multiplying the percentile total, in decimals, the team placed in comparison to all teams taking part in the leg).

[theschnauzers]

Coming in first (or second) on most of the legs appears to be what most people mean by dominance; and in several of the seasons, there were more than one dominant team, and sometimes neither of those teams won the final leg.

In other words, there are different ways to define that term, and as a result, there's probably a mathematical formula to meet every different definition. This is where I apply the K-I-S-S principle, and that explains the reason why my approach is what it is.  

I should point out that comparing any two teams using this list is relative and not intended to be exact; I think one could reasonably asset that where several teams are within say, .01 of a given placement value, and they raced in approximately the same number of legs, that those performances are essentially equal. But that is a subjective interpretation, and not necessarily a conclusion cast in concrete definitiveness. (Think about it, it's a play on words. )

[nathandg0924]

Wow, this is very interesting, hopefully you post more

[mswood]

Years ago I used to do this for the site (but it got to long doing every team) The only question I have is for the DBL leg, I assume you count how they performed during each half of the leg.  And if so in season 9, who got to the matt first Dani & Danielle or Wanda & Desiree (I could never tell with the footage we got).

And for the Family Edition, The finale leg as two full legs in it, but where do you split it.  At getting to the stadium or after they got their departure times?

As to factors, pure numbers aren't enough to go on. 

For example seasons 1-5 had fast forwards available in all but one leg, these means in the legs a fast forward was used it alters the possible outcome in relation to other season.

Then you have the fact that seasons 1-5 let any racer perform all roadblocks.

Season one (and a few other times over the years, but season one was of course the worst) had much harder clues then most all other seasons.  They also unlike any other season had no idea what to expect.

Seasons 13 and on, they had dramatically cut back on how much teams drive (this used to be a huge factor in how well you did).

Hell look at All Stars, and see how one airport mess really screwed with teams.  Impacting several legs.

[theschnauzers]

I don't look at episodes, I look at legs. (Only in the case of uberlegs, do I break it at all, and that's because we've always been shown the order of teams reaching the "continue racing" midpoint (even if that's been over two episodes, which is usually the case.)

Wiki doesn't keep track of that detail, but I have in my notes. One secondary source would normally be the CBS website, but those are impossible to retrieve these days, but Miss Alli's recaps also noted that information. (In other words, I trust my notes, as I've kept track of leg order of finish in real time ever since season three-- and reconstructing the first two seasons was easier then since CBS had "leg-by-leg leader boards." And that's true notwithstanding that CBS messed up a placement in season three that they never fixed.)

My theory is that notwithstanding the changes in how the over-all racecourse is designed (such as increased bunching) the overall average is what has value and not every single placement in each leg, or at points in the leg. It's like for other things, it is a measure of overall performance and not the moment to moment performance. Luck plays a role in winning the last leg; and no matter how you slice it, that can't really be measured....e.g., the Indianapolis Colts and the New Orleans Saints. (Just try telling me that the on-side kick play call in the third quarter wasn't a bit of luck.)

[mswood]

The reason I mentioned the first part of season 9's leg (is that we don't see it happen, not even from clips, so I always hated that).  All we see is both on the matt at the same time (and order on the matt left or right isn't always the order).

As for the Family Edition, that final leg I hate (actually its their best leg), but I hate to figure out where the break would be.

[mswood]

After looking at your list.  I think you don't consider season 8 final to be a DBL leg (though it does have all elements of one 2 roadblocks, 2 detours all in different citites).

[theschnauzers]

Take a look at how that final Family Edition leg was constructed, and you'll find that it was next to impossible to determine a specific point as the mid-point of the leg. (I pulled out my DVD, looked at my surviving notes, looked at Wiki, and Miss Alli's recap of that episode.)

Even Wikipedia calls the Olympic Stadium in Montreal as an "ostensible leg midpoint" because of the ambiguity of the situation. Was it the order of arrival at the stadium, the order teams found the clues in the searching task in the stadium before resting overnight,  or the time of departure the following morning? (All of which resulted in a different team order.)

In the other seasons with uberlegs, the double-length legs had a specific midpoint where teams were instructed to keep racing; and in season six (which was unplanned), the midpoint was generally considered to be the overnight wait at the cafe in Budapest. In many ways the FE final leg was similar to most of the early seasons where teams had an overnight wait that was not a pit stop in mid-leg of the final leg. With that in mind, I'm comfortable that the final leg in the Family Edition couldn't be treated as a true uberleg.

[mswood]

Sorry If I sounded like I was complaining about what you used, trust me I was complaining because I could never decide on which point to use as it effect all three teams.  Personally as much as I hate the weavers I want to say arriving at the Stadium (since no other leg in race history has you looking for you departure times for your next episode, its always on that next episode).  Of course, then the other arguement is that every TBC leg also allows a rest period between legs (that would mean its after you find your departure times, thus my grey hair).

Oh but I was wrong about Dani & Danielle & Wanda & Desiree it is stated on air (what was I smoking, now off to see if I wrote it down current or wrong).

[jtarhead11]

   Great research and work...  However, I'm interested in a different sort of list.  I'm hoping someone can help me out.  I'm curious to know, from the beginning of the race, the total # of m/m, f/f and m/f teams; the total # of openly gay male racers, (either on the same team or individually) vs openly lesbian racers; the # of "differently-able" racers; the # of racers in their 20s, 30s, 40s, etc; the racial breakdown of the racers: Asian, African American, Caucasian, Middle Eastern, etc...  Consider it a sort of TAR census.  I'd like to see the equality in The Amazing Race, (or lack thereof).  Perhaps these #s could help broaden the horizons of the casting process, make for more original and interesting Amazing Race Seasons, and expand the fan base...  Just wondering, thanks for the help!! 

[Coutzy]

There are some problems with your proposal. Largely, how do you define "Differently-able"? A case could be made either way for Luke and Charla. Both these racers had a handicap while competing, but such a handicap wouldn't get them any parking privileges.

My point is, where do you draw the line? In these days, where obesity is considered a disability by some, who decides what makes differently-able on the race?

[georgiapeach]

Let's leave THIS thread for theschnauzers updates and discussion of that technique please.

All that info you are asking for is widely available, if you want to start another thread and ask for help, feel free jtarhead11. I personally find adding labels to teams rather distasteful though, but I see where you are going.

Back to topic please.

[jtarhead11]

Let's leave THIS thread for theschnauzers updates and discussion of that technique please.

All that info you are asking for is widely available, if you want to start another thread and ask for help, feel free jtarhead11. I personally find adding labels to teams rather distasteful though, but I see where you are going.

Back to topic please.

   Georgiapeach, didn't mean to offend, and I'm certainly not trying to "label" anymore than the race already does. I was merely trying to explore some of the inequities in casting.  For example, did you know that, including season 16, only 7 openly gay women have been chosen for the race, while the number of openly gay men is at my count at least 21.  Seems a bit unfair don't you think??  And how many young, Caucasian Barbie and Ken type teams have been on??  Seriously, too many to count, but then America never gets tired of Barbie and Ken.   

But you're right, I should have started another thread to discuss this so as not to distract from theschnauzers AWESOME statistics skills!   

[DeafRacer]

There are some problems with your proposal. Largely, how do you define "Differently-able"? A case could be made either way for Luke and Charla. Both these racers had a handicap while competing, but such a handicap wouldn't get them any parking privileges.

My point is, where do you draw the line? In these days, where obesity is considered a disability by some, who decides what makes differently-able on the race?

Hey now! I am no "disability"      My deafness wasn't a big problem for me on the Race. Hence, my mom and I finished in Top Four in every leg for entire race! Isn't that pretty impressive?

But under the law, I am labeled as disability. Oh well.

[DavidJunior]

There are some problems with your proposal. Largely, how do you define "Differently-able"? A case could be made either way for Luke and Charla. Both these racers had a handicap while competing, but such a handicap wouldn't get them any parking privileges.

My point is, where do you draw the line? In these days, where obesity is considered a disability by some, who decides what makes differently-able on the race?

Hey now! I am no "disability"      My deafness wasn't a big problem for me on the Race. Hence, my mom and I finished in Top Four in every leg for entire race! Isn't that pretty impressive?

But under the law, I am labeled as disability. Oh well.

Luke's only disability has something to do with a certain Chinese bird...