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Offline #HEEL

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The shoving incident...
« on: April 20, 2009, 02:09:52 PM »
I bet you never thought you'd see a title like that without it involving Jonathan and Victoria.

Here's my take:

Let's begin with the hair salon. I think both teams are at fault here. Both teams basically stood on the cluebox, and couldn't find it (Fran and Barry award contenders there.) When both teams saw the cluebox, they ran for it, naturally. Luke got there first, and Jen attempted to grab a clue while he held the box open (We've seen it 3 or 4 times a season, nothing new there.) Here is where it gets a bit tricky to interpret. As Jen reached for a clue, Luke moved his body and raised his left arm to try and clear some space for himself. I believe Luke was caught by suprise upon seeing Jen come up from behind him and that he put his arm up by reflex. Jen did not have a right to get angry for that, since there was no malicious intent in the action.


Next we have the Roadblock clue box. For me this one is a bit clearer. Kisha (Or Jen, I'll have to rewatch that) was obviously at the box first, and Luke barrelled into the back of them. Had the incident at the hair salon not happened, I think this would have gone no further after a simple apology on Luke's part. Unfortunately for all involved, Margie decided to start yelling at Kisha and Jen because she felt that Luke had done nothing wrong. Bad things happen when mothers get involved.


Incident number 3: That long awaited mat meltdown.

This one I'm going to have to rewatch over and over again before coming to conclusions, but here's what I have so far.

At the mat Kisha and Jen were calmy explaining their side of the story, which was fine. Kisha and Jen did not yell, they did not point, they did not accuse Margie or Luke of anything. They simply stated what had happened, from their point of view. Margie and Luke had a side discussion at this point and Margie (Very intelligently) told Luke not to say anything. Bad things happen when people speak in anger.

When Kisha and Jen had finished, Luke attempted to explain it his way as best he could for people who can't sign. Kisha and Jen smiled in the middle of this (This is a normal reaction for some people in times of conflict.) Luke took this completely the wrong way and thought that Kisha and Jen were laughing at him for not being able to hear. How he came to that conclusion I don't know, and probably never will know. This, again, got worse when Margie got involved and in trying to protect her son, she started the screaming. Bringing up Kisha and Jen's "Black-ness" as a weapon in the debate. It gets very hazy at this point, with a lot of back and forth from both sides. Somewhere in the middle Phil manages to get a word in edgeways and tries to mellow the situation. The end result is Kisha and Jen trying to explain that they smile and laugh when people are mad, and they meant nothing untoward by it.



Feel free to weigh in with opinions, but lets keep it articulate, eh?


Offline Dånooky

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2009, 02:44:14 PM »
I believe it was just due to a lot of stress and misinterpretation. I think the first "bitch" wasn't just a reaction to the first cluebox smack, but it had also to do with the fact K&J thought M/L's cab driver gave them bad directions the previous legs, so they were a little mad at them from beforehand. All in all, both teams over-reacted
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Offline TexasLady

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2009, 03:08:01 PM »
FWIW, I thought more of Jen and Kisha after this incident and a lot less of Margie and Luke. Someone mentioned that Luke not being able to hear, didn't know that Jen was coming up next to him. That could well be. However I would think that because of his hearing loss, his other senses might be heightened and he would sense someone coming, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps he was raising the clue box lid and didn't mean to hit her. No harm, and not malicious.

Next the roadblock incident. Another accident, they both were running, momentum carried Luke into Jen. But I think he could have diffused it if he had said sorry or made a gesture. It wasn't diffused and only made things worse.

The biggest problem was the meltdown on the mat. It seemed to my hubby and I that Margie and Luke feel entitled to special consideration because he is deaf, and Margie (for me) showed that this has been an issue that both she and Luke have nurtured for a very long time and it all boiled up confronting Jen and Kisha. We didn't hear the sisters laughing, but they did smile. Who can know what was the cause of the smile. I thought they acted well considering.

If Luke wants to show what deaf people can do then do it! Don't walk off like a child, deal with the problems as they occur and don't expect your mom to take care of it. Margie should let her son grow up. He caused the problem in the first place because evidently he hasn't learned people skills and he badly needs to learn them now. I think Margie encouraged Luke to be resentful and upset. I realize the stress of the race and being tired can cause mistakes but I believe it also can show something else, something that isn't always nice to see, the inner soul.

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Offline Snooky

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2009, 06:48:36 PM »
I believe it was just due to a lot of stress and misinterpretation. I think the first "bitch" wasn't just a reaction to the first cluebox smack, but it had also to do with the fact K&J thought M/L's cab driver gave them bad directions the previous legs, so they were a little mad at them from beforehand. All in all, both teams over-reacted
I highly agree with you cdfe, I do not want to say too much, because I do not want to take either side.  I am just gonna root for Tammy and Victor now.
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Offline puddin

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2009, 07:15:17 PM »
I'm not taking sides seeing as in real life they are all friends no matter what happened on the race .. its just a game.


Offline Moo

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2009, 08:23:56 PM »
When people are stressed out, they can say extremely mean things that they don't usually mean. People also imagine things or take things differently when they are stressed.

The whole thing about the fight is about the stress and of the race itself, being in the Final 5 or 4 already, the stress has been taken to a whole new level.  :lol:

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Offline TARAsia Fan

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2009, 09:01:56 PM »
Margie's snapping at Kisha & Jen was due to a lot of Killer Fatigue.
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Offline CABoSoxFan

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2009, 10:32:58 PM »
Just my thoughts, but Margie overreacted.  Luke needs to grow up and shouldn't be calling a woman, let alone a black woman a bitch.   

Offline Kiwi Jay

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2009, 01:05:08 AM »
My opinion is that Luke was wrong and Margie was acting nuts (full stop).
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Offline crickettu

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2009, 03:11:07 AM »
I just remembered something when Luke was in the taxi he signed calling the deaf guy a bitch is not nice...umm so its ok to call everyone a bitch but not the deaf guy??? yeah. I dont know they say they dont want special treatment cuz he is deaf but it seems like alot of time they want special alotment because he is deaf.

i dont know maybe alot of people on this board will disagree with me but thats fine.


Offline TexasLady

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2009, 07:26:21 AM »
Welcome to RFF crickettu! I think Luke just needs to grow up a little more. (A lot more?)   ;)



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Offline #HEEL

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2009, 07:36:03 AM »
I just remembered something when Luke was in the taxi he signed calling the deaf guy a bitch is not nice...umm so its ok to call everyone a bitch but not the deaf guy??? yeah. I dont know they say they dont want special treatment cuz he is deaf but it seems like alot of time they want special alotment because he is deaf.

i dont know maybe alot of people on this board will disagree with me but thats fine.

Completely agree. Either ask for special treatment, or ask to be treated normally. If Jen would have called anybody else a bitch in that situation, then it is no different to call the deaf guy a bitch in that situation.

Offline KrisCe

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2009, 10:31:28 AM »
I think this whole incident... has turned into a lot more then it needed to be.  Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't both team members have to be at the clue box?   I don't see why people have to fight over a clue.... it isn't like they were pulling numbers for an order or anything.  I am sure that the tension between the two teams... if not all the teams just builds and builds.... and here one of them finally errupted.  I felt sorry for Tammy and Victor having to be on the mat with all the stuff that was going on. 

Offline Dånooky

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2009, 10:34:04 AM »
Sadly, in today's world, it's all about political correctness...*sigh*
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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2009, 10:43:24 AM »
Sadly, in today's world, it's all about political correctness...*sigh*
I don't think was about PC in this case. It was a case where it was a stressful situation. Neither M/L or J/K knew what place they were in and they got heated. Did it get a bit out of hand? Yes.

I feel Luke was at fault and Margie heightened it. K/J also have fault in this as well, but I think both teams have seen they come off badly. But in the whole scheme of things, M/L and K/J probably have buried the hatchet since. I would not be surprised to see them be good friends at the finale.
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Offline #HEEL

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2009, 11:16:32 AM »
fwiw, I think Kisha and Jen handled themselves very well at the mat during the confrontation. I shudder to think what somebody like Colin or Jonathan would have done (The memories of Joe Roegan with a headlock on Johnny Fairplay come flooding back.)

Offline apskip

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2009, 01:53:12 PM »
Sadly, in today's world, it's all about political correctness...*sigh*

Not it's not, only if you let it be that. If you do not care about political correctness, then you can just look at the facts and your own interpretations and come down on one side, the other, or neutral. What other people believe (essential for political correctness) can be irrelevant if you think that what you believe is what's important.

Offline mswood

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2009, 03:44:54 PM »
Frankly I am surprised by the reactions here.

While each party has reason to be ashamed by their behavior at different stages of this leg, the person who started it was Jen. 

At the first route marker, she pushes into Luke (nothing wrong with that happens all the time), he uses his arm to block her access to the cluebox (nothing wrong with this either happens all the time).  And I don’t think either action was taken in anger at the other party.  But what goes beyond the common (though it does still happen) is that Jen starts name calling.  She calls Luke a bitch (which she freely admits, Luke obviously doesn’t know this).  Jen says his behavior is uncalled for, unsportsmen like, yet the simply fat of the matter it is her behavior that is.  Take earlier this season between Mark/Michael and Tammy & Victor no name calling, take last season between Dan and Nick look no name calling (for two fairly recent examples).

In fact Luke doesn’t know anything wrong until his Mom tells him.  Then of course he gets angry for being called a bitch.  Notice he wasn’t mad about being pushed into (again that really is something that happens a lot on the race).  Now both people are mad and venting at their partner.

At the next clue box both of them are running quite hard (the big difference from the earlier contact is that this one is harder because they are full on running) and this time its Luke pushing into Jen, its Luke pushing into Jen’s space to get to the Cluebox and Jen blocking with her arms.  (again both sides are rougher this time, but again not something that doesn’t happen on the race).  And here we have Luke call Jen a bitch, basically throwing her own insult back at her, and it looks like this is due to the insult earlier.

Now of course, Luke could set a great example, and rise above the original insult (and at this point Margie is all for that, boy that will change), but again he isn’t starting it, he is responding to it.

My parents always taught me you don’t want to be called names, then don’t call other people names (and again on this we absolutely know she started it).  You don’t want to be pushed, then don’t push people.  It doesn’t matter their gender, race, sex, ect. 

And afterwards, both teams continue to build their frustration while driving through the day.  We even get to see Jen talk about laughing at Luke just to make it worse (hopefully something she really wouldn’t do, just as we see Luke punching his fist together something I don’t think he would do be actually hitting her).

Then we get to the Mat, and here is where Margie goes nuts (she clearly goes over the line).  But I also do wonder (not that it makes it right, but I can understand it) if Jen does follow up with what she said she would do and laugh at him.  Either way they all could have rose above it.  But that’s the pressure of the race and it does often bring out both the good and the bad in people. 

But Jen did start it.
 Jen. 

Offline Ray!

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2009, 08:47:48 PM »
Actually, it was Kisha/Jen's first cab driver. Had he not gotten lost and took them to the street, this whole thing wouldn't have happened. ;)
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Offline Jobby

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2009, 11:01:06 PM »
My stand is i'm on Kisha and Jen's side. And mind you, i'm a Margie and Luke fan.

The thing that triggered off Jen calling Luke "bitch" was probably what came from last leg, when Margie and Luke told their cab driver to give Kisha and Jen's cab driver the wrong directions. It was foul play and Kisha and Jen could have been more rude and confronted Margie and Luke. (Maybe they did, remember we don't see everything on the race)

And i see mswood's point of saying Jen's "bitch" triggered off everything, but we can also look at it that Luke pushing Jen off triggered her to say the word "bitch", isn't it? I mean, you don't shove people away from the cluebox because what's the point? You're only getting a 5 seconds lead over the other team? And throughout the episode we were repeatedly shown of the scene at the hairsalon where Luke did push Jen's hand off. So at here, Luke's more at fault.

At the second cluebox, i believe that Jen ran to the cluebox ahead of Luke. And Luke, whether or not he tried to stop or deliberately bang into Jen, i believe that both teams are at fault here, but more to Jen's fault because she tried to block Luke this time.

But what happened at the pitstop meltdown was uncalled for, because Kisha and Jen were calm and explained their side of the story, which they obviously thought they were right, but on the other hand, Margie and Luke's reactions were so over the top. I understand Margie's POV as a mother and wanted to protect his son that he has been dealing with it all these years.. but i call this overprotecting from my POV. Her words comes off to me that deaf people should be more respected and get more privileges and that there was some self-pity there involved as well. For me, i don't think that there's any difference from deaf people to normal people. Look at how Margie and Luke won 3 legs and Kisha and Jen only won 1 so far (and it was just by a few seconds ahead of them).. so, there isn't any disadvantage that they are facing right now. I believe that Margie and Luke are facing the race stress and treating the race more critically.. and when something negative comes towards them, they take the full impact of it to their heart and treat it seriously.. which resulted in the pitstop meltdown.

Both parties are at fault here, but i really stand on Kisha and Jen's side more for their graciousness. Other than that, i still like both teams.

And whoohoo, my top 4 teams this season are in the final 4! :jumpy: :jumpy: :jumpy: :jumpy:

Offline mswood

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2009, 11:07:20 PM »
Joab

The problem with that is apparently Margie & Luke didn't tell their cab to tell them the wrong directions (they told him not to tell the other driver the directions which is different).  NOt giving information is different then giving wrong information.

And I have gone throw the footage in slow motion, Luke is pulling the clue out with his left arm, Jen reaches around and she gets a bit of the clue and that is when Luke uses that same arm to elbow to push her arm (and grasp) away from the clue he has (his other hand is what is holding open the clue box).  I absolutely think there is nothing wrong with pushing someone (lightly) away from the clue you have in hand when they are grabbing for it.  Jen might not have been trying to take that clue, but Luke can't know that.  To use basket ball as an example when you have the ball you use your body (including your arm to create a barrier to keep the opponents from getting to the ball.  We saw Nick last year manage to steal a clue from Dan who clearly had it first and Nick just tore it out of his hands.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 11:20:26 PM by mswood »

Offline mswood

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2009, 11:26:14 PM »
In the very first episode of this season we have Tammy & Mark at a race to the clue box (for the cheese task) and Tammy is just barely (and this one is much much closer) ahead in grabbing a clue, and both use their body (including their contact at elbow and arm to push the other).  No one called another a name.  Hell one even apologized.  The contact was enough to push the cluebox partially over (so it wasn't just a tiny bump).

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2009, 11:41:58 PM »
I understand your POV, but from my side it was clearly overreation from M/L.. but you are right too mswood. :)

Offline #HEEL

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2009, 06:13:18 AM »
Quote
To use basket ball as an example when you have the ball you use your body (including your arm to create a barrier to keep the opponents from getting to the ball.

 :ot:

That's an offensive foul if you use your arm.

Offline mswood

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2009, 02:07:10 PM »
But again with the basketball metaphor, this isn't the players free arm, this is the arm he is dribbling with.  A player can have his elbow hit another player (if its the normal movement range) and it not be a fowl in the process of the game.  I mean this isn't someone taking their elbow and going out of there way.  At least thats how I remember it (its been decades, seriesly three decades since I played any bowl).  And he using that arm to left the clue up and out of the box.




Offline mswood

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2009, 02:10:29 PM »
I understand your POV, but from my side it was clearly overreation from M/L.. but you are right too mswood. :)
I do agree that all teams overreacted (especially as the day went along).  I just see Jen's rude comment being the action that was inconsistent with typical race behavior.  For example there is in that episode one contact between Tammy & Mark.  Yet how would you have reacted to that if Mark called Tammy a bitch?  I think many would have found that out of line.  And if so that same should apply in this situation.

Offline #HEEL

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2009, 08:39:19 PM »
Maybe the racers are taking after certain Survivor episode titles...

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2009, 09:13:10 PM »
This was mentioned in the episode thread, but I thought a reply would be better here:
The thumb tucked into the palm can't be a coincidence: she's signing B/Bitch. Margie, in her two-tone jacket, can be seen behind the tree hurrying to catch up with Luke, who stepped away to the right. I'm not conspiracy-minded, I don't think the bad blood was staged by production, so if we take the editing at face value then Luke didn't see it go down (Margie told him in the taxi). It also leaves the interesting question of where Jen got her word skills.

Offline apskip

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2009, 10:13:21 PM »
It's barely possible that Jen got hers from whoever was teaching Phil. And that might have been Margie herself at pit stops.

Offline dawnd

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2009, 01:07:00 PM »
Let me preface my comments by saying that I am a sign language interpreter for the Deaf. I admit I am biased, and obviously a HUGE M/L fan! So... think about this... For his whole life, Luke has depended on his eyes and what he can see for communication and interpreting the outside world. I have witnessed the nasty comments and mockery of many toward Deaf individuals and so it was completely reasonable for him and Margie to take it the wrong way when K/J were laughing. That is what they are used to dealing with. I am beyond impressed at the strength with which they are running this race given what he misses via hearing that so many others catch and don't even realize they catch. I found K/J to be nasty toward him and unwilling to admit that Jen did in fact start the whole mess. Having said that, this was all stress related, not a big deal, and should have been dropped right away. Both teams overreacted! GO MARGIE AND LUKE! ILY!!

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2009, 08:40:07 AM »
I have a thought about what would have happened if the protagonist were Jaime instead of Jen. I would have loved to see Luke trying to elbow her and push her around! I'll bet he would have received a prompt and decisive response.

Offline #HEEL

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2009, 11:05:30 AM »
I get the feeling that If J/C were involved, it would have been dropped straight away.

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2009, 11:08:18 AM »
Jaime would have ripped Luke's face off. Then she would have ripped Margie's heart out. Then she would have yelled at a cab driver. End of story.
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Offline walkingpneumonia

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2009, 12:04:29 PM »
Jaime would have ripped Luke's face off. Then she would have ripped Margie's heart out. Then she would have yelled at a cab driver. End of story.
And then she would have taken on Nina Tassler and died...

Which gives me an idea for TAR 16 - the network executive edition.
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Offline #HEEL

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2009, 12:25:12 PM »
Jaime would have ripped Luke's face off. Then she would have ripped Margie's heart out. Then she would have yelled at a cab driver. End of story.
And then she would have taken on Nina Tassler and died...

Which gives me an idea for TAR 16 - the network executive edition.

Amazing Race: Champions Edition would be better (Special wild card entries for Romber and Colin and Christie, because, lets face it, people would pay to see those two teams go head to head.)

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2009, 04:06:16 PM »
Jaime would have ripped Luke's face off. Then she would have ripped Margie's heart out. Then she would have yelled at a cab driver. End of story.
And then she would have taken on Nina Tassler and died...

Which gives me an idea for TAR 16 - the network executive edition.

Amazing Race: Champions Edition would be better (Special wild card entries for Romber and Colin and Christie, because, lets face it, people would pay to see those two teams go head to head.)
Special Wild Card entries: the whiny four: Lenny & Karyn, Johnathan & Victoria, Meredith & Gretchen, Tammy & Victor
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This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move

Offline PunkyPoo

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2009, 10:16:43 PM »
I hated the way that Margie and Luke seemed to carry a grudge. But then again, maybe Kisha and Jen dropped it so fast and "moved on" because they knew they were in the wrong. I mean pushing at the clue box (admittedly unclear) and laughing at the pit stop? Maybe they knew they were wrong.

Offline Jobby

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Re: The shoving incident...
« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2009, 04:52:19 AM »
I hated the way that Margie and Luke seemed to carry a grudge. But then again, maybe Kisha and Jen dropped it so fast and "moved on" because they knew they were in the wrong. I mean pushing at the clue box (admittedly unclear) and laughing at the pit stop? Maybe they knew they were wrong.

Your comment seemed as if Kisha and Jen were in the wrong. But then again you seemed to think that Margie and Luke had a vengence going on. So... is your opinion more of both teams are in the wrong, or is it that Kisha and Jen are to be more at fault? ???


 

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